Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 January 5

= January 5 =

Typical Sizes of 'traditional' buildings.
Hi.

In Brunskill's book on "Traditional Buildings of Britain" there are a number of diagrams (mostly front elevations) for various 'traditional' buildings.

Does anyone on the references desk have a list of reliable sources for typical dimensional data for such buildings? (The intention was to look into producing some artwork for Commons, and possibly some simple paper models.)

Alternatively, is there anyone on the reference desk that has done buildings recording work directly that may be able to contribute actual survey data (via Wikiversity)? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:41, 5 January 2022 (UTC)


 * The book in question can be viewed online here: https://archive.org/details/traditionalbuild0000brun_d2p2 . I suggest you could get an approximate scale by measuring the width of the doors (doors in old houses are often lower than modern ones, but don't vary so much in width) and scaling everything else from there. I'm not sure there really is a "typical" size for such buildings, they vary widely according the the resources of their builders. If the book suggests a place where particular types of buildings occur, maybe go there on Google Maps and take a few measurements - for example A virtual wander around Lavenham might be instructive. Chuntuk (talk) 10:39, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Some information at High ceilings in old Houses - looking for Documentation. Alansplodge (talk) 11:27, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Jim Gorilla, "a minor character in a major novel"
In we read "Jim Gorilla, a minor character in a major novel, represents a rather feeble bilingual play on words, rendering Welsh Jim Gŵr Ella ("Ella's husband Jim"). In addition to uxorious subservience he exhibited obvious affinity to the great apes". What was the major novel? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 13:02, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Precious few Google hits. One is . If you download the PDF and use Google Translate on the sentence where "Gorilla" appears (or if you can read Welsh), maybe you can find something. --←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:13, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * O Law i Law, Thomas Rowland Hughes? sef Jim-Gŵr-Ella, neu Jim Gorila ar lafar? fiveby(zero) 14:18, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * How's your Welsh? fiveby(zero) 14:23, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * O law i law 1984 condensed version, seems to be missing the play on words. . fiveby(zero) 14:35, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's it. thanks that does identify the work as "O law i law", but it's in Irish, not Welsh. I don't read either. DuncanHill (talk) 16:29, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Coincidentally, I am reading Laughing Gas, a novel by P.G. Wodehouse [I think his books are hilarious, unlike his repugnant political views], in which the protagonist at the beginning of Chapter III reveals his own physiognomy: he relates that his father ("the pater") "was a gallant soldier and played a hot game of polo, but he had a face like a gorilla—much more so than most gorillas have—and was, so I am informed, affectionately known to his little circle of cronies, as Consul, the Almost Human. And I am his living image. These things weigh with girls. They shrink from linking their lot with a fellow whose appearance gives the impression that at any moment he may shin up trees and start throwing coco-nuts." MinorProphet (talk) 18:57, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Consul was a name given to various famous chimpanzees, which would explain the nickname. See Proconsul (mammal) and the sources therein for more info. DuncanHill (talk) 19:24, 5 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Ah, Wodehouse's novel was published in 1936, three years after P. africanus was named. The Proconsul (mammal) article was missing alink to Belle Vue Zoological Gardens. I recognised the name of Belle Vue from an unfinished draft article of mine: but how might have the original Consul at the Folies Bergère got his name? MinorProphet (talk) 00:38, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Perhaps because France was once ruled by consuls? Alansplodge (talk) 00:48, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * There were also performing chimps called "Napoleon", and Napoleon I was the First Consul of France before he crowned himself. Alansplodge (talk) 14:30, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The Folies Bergère Consul appears to be Frank Bostock's brought over from Coney Island in 1903 "Consul’s Brand Name", and Bell Vue Consul the first of the name purchased in 1893. fiveby(zero) 15:57, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah yes (see p. 188 of the last link), I was barking up the wrong tree. This seems to be the original 1893 Consul, but I'm not sure what he's supposed to be dressed as. Alansplodge (talk) 18:17, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Well, well, well. Thanks to everyone for your generous efforts and diligent research. I have been interested in Frank Bostock and his gang for many years. Bostock (The Training of Wild Animals) reffed in the above link by fiveby; along with Henry Iles (of Dreamland Margate); Joseph Menchen (also User:MinorProphet/Joseph L. Menchen [draft]), producer of The Miracle (1912 film), the world's first full-colour dramatic feature film; and Harry McGarvie (veteran promoter of most of the US World's Fairs, full refs available) was one of the partners of European Amusements Parks Ltd., (EAPL). This almost unknown Anglo-American consortium built all of the European Luna Parks, having come together at the original Luna Park at Coney Island in around 1903. Menchen (originally a theatre lighting electrician) provided some stunning lighting effects for a number of rides at Coney Island, and for the original A Trip to the Moon at the eponymous Luna Park, and was the technical partner. Iles (also a major promoter of British brass bands) licenced LaMarcus Adna Thompson's Scenic Railway in Europe (a major attraction of European Luna Parks), and was later a director of Belle Vue. See ONDB, UK Library subscription needed

User:MinorProphet/George C. Crager [draft] was the Sioux interpreter for Buffalo Bill's Wild West (BBWW) tour of Europe in 1891 - Chief Charging Thunder (essentially conscripted into BBWW) attacked Crager after he had sold a Ghost shirt to Kelvingrove Museum in Glasgow. Charging Thunder was still part of the BBWW during its 1903 European tour in Manchester, and finally left to work with the elephants at Belle Vue. Crager was later Menchen's 'business partner' at the Studios Menchen, Epinay-sur-Seine, Paris in 1913 (later Studios Éclair) ; and a dodgier, more unscrupulous character I have yet to come across. Crager (seven times married) was in the Berlin Circus Schumann in 1906 exhibiting some 'Moki' or 'Hopi Indians', two years after Bostock's Consul died there of bronchitis in 1904. All my extensive notes and refs are on a different computer (easily accessible), but if anyone is interested I have accumulated a huge amount of material about these entertainment promoters, which could easily become a linked set of properly-reffed WP articles. Or a book. MinorProphet (talk) 16:46, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

J. St G. Heath - "a previously unknown economics lecturer"
Lloyd George's Land Enquiry Committee had one J. St G. Heath as its paid secretary. According to "Heath's appointment reflected Rowntree's influence, for he was a previously unknown economics lecturer at Woodbroke, a Quaker college in Birmingham in which Rowntree took an active interest". I haven't been able to turn up much more about him - his correspondence with members of the Enquiry and others such as Masterman are cited in the literature, but biographical detail is lacking. He contributed to The Economic Journal in the 1910s. Can anyone turn up anything more about him? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 17:14, 5 January 2022 (UTC)


 * After guessing at his forenames, I found; HEATH, JOHN ST. GEORGE (1885-1916) which says that he was a social worker at Toynbee Hall, a pioneering social experiment of the settlement movement. Alansplodge (talk) 17:41, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Researching inequality – LSE and the Ratan Tata Trust says:
 * The work of the Foundation was interrupted by the First World War. In November 1914 Tawney volunteered for army service and John St George Heath (1882-1918), the Quaker warden of Toynbee Hall, was appointed as Director but war conditions made research difficult.
 * That foundation has a brief mention at Ratanji Tata: ...he also established a Ratan Tata Fund at the University of London for studying the conditions of the poorer classes.
 * Alansplodge (talk) 17:48, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Warden at Toynbee Hall 1914-1917, son Graham Heath. DuncanHill (talk) 17:50, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Have found an In memoriam in The Toynbee Record - unfortunately their website makes it hard to link directly to it, it's thumb 20 0f 158. Vol XXX No. 1 November 1918. He was President of the Oxford Union, involved in setting up the Whitley Councils, buried at the Friends' Burial Ground, Jordans, Bucks. DuncanHill (talk) 17:57, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * And a brief mention at Ethel Bright Ashford: more and less than a role model (p. 4 of 19) which has him as an economics lecturer at Woodbrooke Quaker Study Centre, perhaps in 1908-9 if I'm reading it aright. Alansplodge (talk) 18:01, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Left Woodbroke (the spelling seems to have changed since his day) in 1912 according to the In memoriam, lecturer in Social Economics and "in charge of the Social Training Course in connection with Birmingham University". DuncanHill (talk) 18:06, 5 January 2022 (UTC)


 * And appears in our List of presidents of the Oxford Union for Hilary term in 1905. Alansplodge (talk) 18:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * And appears in our List of presidents of the Oxford Union for Hilary term in 1905. Alansplodge (talk) 18:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Admission to the Soviet Union
Hello everyone. Were there instances of countries/governments outside of the Warsaw Pact, Yugoslavia and Mongolia asking for admission into the Soviet Union? Thank you! --79.49.59.202 (talk) 20:26, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The Hungarian Soviet Republic "asked for a treaty of alliance with the Russian SFSR.[31] The Russian SFSR refused because it was itself tied down in the Russian Civil War." --Error (talk) 21:22, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Tuva was annexed in 1944 (it was a fragment of geographical Mongolia, but not the country of Mongolia). Finland would have been part of the Karelo-Finnish SSR if Stalin's plans had worked out (and if he hadn't purged most of the effective military officers in the Soviet Army)... AnonMoos (talk) 21:34, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The notion that Finland would have been annexed into USSR proper is speculation. There had been similar speculations on say Poland, but in the end no such merger took place. If USSR had won the war with Finland before 1941, would Finland have been integrated like the Baltic states or converted into a PDR like Poland, Hungary, etc? We cannot know for sure. I similar situation existed with Iranian Azerbaijan, there are speculations that USSR would have sought to eventually annex the area, but to my knowledge there was no request for admission along the lines asked by the OP in any of these cases. --Soman (talk) 23:04, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The more interesting case would have been the Chinese Soviet Republic. Someone must have at least discussed the possibility of a merger at some point. Notably the 1931 All-China Congress of Soviets declared that the national minorities (Tibetan, Mongolian, Turkic, etc.) could chose between independence, joining the USSR or having autonomy within China . The wording must have been vetted by Comintern officials. This policy was however, partially reverted just months later. --Soman (talk) 23:27, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Soman -- It's not a remote purely hypothetical speculation, but is based on the concrete facts of Stalin's land-gobbling tendencies in many other cases (in both 1939 and 1945), as well as his dissolution of the puppet collaborationist Kuusinen shadow government into the government of the Karelo-Finnish SSR. The fact that Karelo-Finland was ever an SSR, instead of just being an ASSR, is a pretty big clue in itself... AnonMoos (talk) 02:14, 6 January 2022 (UTC)


 * The idea that the various Soviet republics were formerly free states that entered into free association to form the Soviet Union, and that is how the country got formed is just not accurate to history. Look at the geography.  The Soviet Union was geographically co-extensive with the Russian Empire that it replaced.  No one joined or left that wasn't already part of Russia before the October Revolution, and AFAIK, there never was any intent to do so.  (there's a debatable minor exception of Tuva, noted above, but it's importance to the general concept should not be overstated)  Anyone in the Soviet sphere outside of what had been Russia were all considered Soviet satellite states, and were never intended to integrate into the USSR.  -- Jayron 32 23:38, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The October (November) 1917 Bolshevik coup did not instantly add or subtract any territory, but when the Soviet Union was founded at the end of 1922 it certainly did not have the same borders as Tsarist Russia in July, 1914. Finland, the Baltics (Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania), large chunks of Poland, and Bessarabia were all non-Soviet.  Of course, Stalin seized some of those territories back in 1939 and/or 1945... AnonMoos (talk) 07:05, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The Bolsheviks were forced to sign away large chunks of the Tsarist empire in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, by which they extracted Russia from the First World War. The treaty was made void by the Armistice of 11 November 1918, because it was so advantageous to Germany and deemed to be spoils of war, but the Treaty of Versailles confirmed the independence of the new republics. Alansplodge (talk) 18:27, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I missed the part in all of y'all correcting me where you identified the republics of the Soviet Union that had not substantially been territory of Tsarist Russia. -- Jayron 32 23:54, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

James Bourne sketchbook, circa 1820
Can we identify the location of the settlements (or features) of Loxley bridge, Whitley, "Marle(?) Bridge", and Keplins:

in this circa 1820 sketchbook of drawings of "Surrey (and environs)", by the artist James Bourne?

For the record, the remaining views depict Chiddingfold, Dunsfold and Pickhurst. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:51, 5 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Loxley Bridge is on the road between Dunsfold and Plaistow, West Sussex. Alansplodge (talk) 22:56, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * In almost the same neck of the woods, "Whitley" may be a misspelling of Witley in Surrey, near Godalming. No luck with the others. Alansplodge (talk) 23:13, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * There are various Marle fields and Marle lands in Surrey, presumably related to the working of marl, a Marle Heath at Addlestone, and a Marle Hall in Reigate. DuncanHill (talk) 23:32, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * However, the Oxford Dictionary of English Place-Names (Ed. A. D. Mills, OUP 1991, 1998) gives various examples of 'Marl-' placenames as deriving from mere (pool), Mærla, Mærel, Mearna and Mearthel (men's names), and meargealla (gentian).
 * There is a Marle Green in East Sussex, SE of Horam and close to three bridges over the River Cuckmere. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.208.89.176 (talk) 08:10, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * A further thought: 'Keplins' may be the then-current name of the house depicted, deriving from its being owned, then or previously, by a person or family surnamed Keplin. Such house names often change after new ownership arises, so after 200 years it might be very difficult to identify. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.208.89.176 (talk) 10:51, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Re Loxley Bridge, there is an old half-timbered cottage close to the bridge called WROTHAM HILL COTTAGE (scroll down for a photo), which looks similar to the one in the drawing. Alansplodge (talk) 11:31, 7 January 2022 (UTC)