Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 January 8

= January 8 =

States at War
Can states declare war on each other with their respective militias? Would, say, a Texan invasion of Oklahoma be possible? -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.74.200.55 (talk) 01:04, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Congress has the sole power to declare war. And keep in mind that the Confederacy tried it, and was smacked down for it. --<-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 01:53, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * According to the U.S. Constitution, "No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay." -- AnonMoos (talk) 02:03, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The part forbidding the keeping of troops in time of peace, raises a question: The Second Amendment refers to militias. Would the existence of militias qualify as the keeping of troops? I'm talking about state-sanctioned militias, not these characters who label themselves as "militias". --<-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 02:10, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Official state militias had/have “consent of Congress” (today, they are considered an adjunct of the National Guard). Blueboar (talk) 14:34, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * So, that permits Texas to invade Oklahoma defensively. Card Zero  (talk) 02:37, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * This is good info because I started a popular movement at my school on the basis of invading Oklahoma, and I wanted to make sure it was possible. Thanks. 68.74.200.55 (talk) 05:38, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The constitution says that such an invasion would be unconstitutional. AnonMoos (talk) 10:57, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * This was an issue back in the War of 1812… it was unclear whether the New York Militia units could legally take part in a planned invasion of Canada, as that was not “defensive”. Blueboar (talk) 14:41, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Requesting some help

 * Working on expansion of Draft:1969 Rabindra Sarobar Stadium en masse sexual violence controversy
 * Looking for information on the incidence from 'Calcutta Municipal Gazette'
 * Specially 'a judicial inquiry report' of Justice Shambhu Ghosh (alternate spelling, Sambhu Chandra Ghose) presumably dated in December 1969.
 * Sources like seem to be available with the University of Michigan, So if any one has access to University of Michigan Library may help out.
 * Some alternate source options seem to be available @ Digital Library of the West Bengal Secretariat and search their lead me to one Gazette 1st April to 30th April 1969 & 1st December to 31st December 1969 but these documents seem too large for browsing through for me the single person.

I would appreciate any help in above regard.

Thanks and warm regards

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 04:58, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * If you want another Wikipedian to look up a reference for you, then you should ask at the Resource Exchange Project LongHairedFop (talk) 13:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Gold rate as a measurement of inflation
Hello all. I have NO knowledge about economics so please keep answers simple. I have 2 hypothetical situations. First, let's say someone gave me some money as loan. Say they gave me 100,000 INR three times over a period of three years. So say current rate of gold is 5000 INR per gram, after a year it became 6,000 and then after one more year It became 7000. So can I say, the person gave me (100000/5000) = 20 gm, (100000/6000)=16.6gm and (100000/7000)=14.2 gm as three installments which adds up to 50.8 gm. And I need to return him this much amount. So whenever I pay back some money then its equivalent gold amount is deducted from 50.8 gm. In another situation, say, I set my goal today that I will become rich so that I have net worth of 1 billion INR. But after say 20 years (by the time I reach my goal) value of 1 billion will be less due to inflation. So can say that I will achieve net worth of 200,000 gms gold (rate is 5000/gm). I understand that there might be some simpler methods like assuming inflation rate to be 2% per year etc., But I guess these rates fluctuate over the years. But what is something which remains constant. Is it gold? - 2409:4043:2391:E55C:569:ECAE:B4A9:921C (talk) 07:07, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Unless a government intervenes, the market price of gold is what it sells for. If your loan was in Rupees, and you are expected to pay it back in gold, you have assumed the risk of depreciation (when the loan is due, you must buy gold, regardless of the price); the lender has assumed the risk of appreciation (the Rupee might rise against gold). On the second point, the future price of gold can be estimated from the futures market for your favourite currency.DOR (HK) (talk) 13:36, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

"What if" speculative "histories" about the American Civil War not happening
Are there any good books based on the idea that the war never happened and the secession was an uncontested divorce? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 08:50, 8 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Try Rethinking the Coming of the Civil War: A Counterfactual Exercise. Alansplodge (talk) 11:20, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Not exactly "not happening", but the book If the South Had Won the Civil War explores what might have happened if the CSA had won. It also contains a link to other alternative histories. --←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Not a "history", but Underground Airlines is a book set in a modern America where some states continue to practice slavery. I enjoyed it.- gadfium 23:13, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Commons image File:Храм I.jpg
Can someone tell me who made this image and when? Currently under discussion at Talk:Solomon%27s_Temple. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:59, 8 January 2022 (UTC)


 * The earliest appearance i can find through tineye and archive is the link in the image description 22 August, 2002 used on same site here(ru)(en) and here(ru)(en). Does "Built by King Solomon in 2887" suggest a chronology or hint at source to anyone? I can't find the year 2887 associated with First Temple elsewhere. fiveby(zero) 15:19, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the effort! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:56, 9 January 2022 (UTC)


 * If you begin with the Jewish era of 6 October 3761 BC, then the year 2887 is 874 B.C., which is probably at least 50 years too late, but roughly in the right chronological region.... AnonMoos (talk) 21:01, 9 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Given the time of year, one could revise the saying to "In Adam's fall, he raked leaves." --←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:49, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

J. D. McCallum
When did John Donaldson McCallum, Scottish minister who served as Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland in 1926, die? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:28, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Is this the guy? --<-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 18:29, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Probably; but FaG is considered an unreliable source. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:45, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * What, you think they faked the tombstone? If all else fails, call the cemetery and ask. --<-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 18:47, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * No, I don't think anything of the kind. I suggest you direct your snark to the people who persistently remove citations to FaG. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:57, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * YOU rejected the Findagrave reference I posted. If you doubt its value, you could call the cemetery and find out. Assuming they confirm it, and to really do it right, you could go there yourself and take a picture of the headstone, which you could post in the guy's rather sparse article. That should thwart the efforts of the Findagrave deletionists. --<-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 01:59, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * See WP:FINDAGRAVE-EL. We can't cite telephone calls either. DuncanHill (talk) 02:31, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The OP wants to know the answer. He's got ways to find out the answer. Assuming the cemetery has a written record of the burial, and if he goes to the cemetery and takes a picture of the tombstone, would that be sufficient? --<-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 04:19, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * He needs a reliable source that he can use as as a citation in a Wikipedia article. A picture of a headstone or a telephone conversation won't be any use for that. Alansplodge (talk) 09:50, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Since when are pictures taken by Wikipedians not considered reliable? --<-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 11:59, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Sigh, see No original research. Alansplodge (talk) 14:26, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * So every photo submitted by Wikipedia users should be deleted. --<-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 19:04, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Baseball_Bugs -- Wikimedia Commons is kind of its own separate realm. There's no policy on Commons forbidding Original Research there, and by their nature, many details of the circumstances in which photos were taken, or details of what is shown in photos, can't be externally verified, and depend on trusting the honesty of the uploader.  But the other side of this is that Wikimedia Commons images can't usually be used as sources for Wikipedia articles (illustrations yes, sources no). AnonMoos (talk) 07:00, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thus making Wikipedia look stupid. --←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:01, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * A picture of a gravestone saying "Fred Bloggs lies here, 1st April 1900 - 25 December 2022" is not a reliable source for the vital dates of Fred Bloggs, inventor of the self-reciprocating widget. It could be the grave of any one of a number of Fred Bloggses. Fred may have lied to his family about his birthday, perhaps to seem younger than he was or to hide his illegitimacy. It might say "loved by all who knew him" when in fact 90% of those who did know him thought he was an utter rotter, or "head of research at Imperial Widgets for over 50 years" when he held no such formal post, but liked to brag to family and friends, or "served with distinction in the Royal Artillery" when all he did was clean the lats at Woolwich. Gravestones are not carved under oath. Now, the dates may be helpful in tracking down something that is a reliable source, by, for example, narrowing down the range of newspapers in which to search. This isn't rocket science and I think anyone with any experience of sourcing articles will understand it. DuncanHill (talk) 14:47, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It comes down to how badly you want to know the answer. --←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:54, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Wishaw Press Friday 23 May 1930, page 8, reports "One of the most prominent ministers in Lanarkshire. the Very Rev. J. D. McCallum. D.D., Larkhall, has just gone into retirement after a ministry of 44 years. Dr McCallum, who was moderator in 1926 of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, and for many years Clerk to the Hamilton Presbytery, has taken up residence with his family at Brookside, Moffat, Dumfriesshire. Since his retirement he has received by post a gift of £100 from his former congregation at Larkhall, as a parting expression of their good-will and affection". DuncanHill (talk) 20:27, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The Times, Tuesday 14 October 1930 has an obituary, saying he died at Moffat last week. Will email. DuncanHill (talk) 20:38, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Received, thank you. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:57, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I have no understanding of how Wikidata works, but why does the infobox say he was born in 1856 in Tarbolton, which is about 25 miles from Glasgow? 86.163.187.13 (talk) 12:31, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It says that because edited d:Q45776697 last night to change the place and date of birth, adding the Times obituary as a source to both, but hasn't so far edited the text of the Wikipedia article accordingly.  --ColinFine (talk) 17:25, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Youngest diarist in history
I'm looking for the youngest person who kept a diary which survives. When I try searching this question, all I get is returns about Anne Frank, who was 13 when she began keeping her diary. I figure there must be younger diarists, since a lot of children can write by the age of eight or earlier. Lantzy : Lantzy 20:22, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * If you've got the time and patience, you could try WP's List of diarists. 2603:6081:1C00:1187:4C3B:DABB:F598:DB70 (talk) 22:34, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Presumably you mean published diary. The best I've found so far is Anna Green Winslow, who was 11, almost 12, when she started writing letters which became a diary of sorts, published as Diary of Anna Green Winslow, A Boston School Girl of 1771. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:48, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * From a half-remembered TV documentary I found Yves Congar who began his illustrated diary of the 1914 German occupation of Sedan when he was 10. It's still available in print. Alansplodge (talk) 09:09, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It was an attempted coupe. Temerarius (talk) 17:52, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * In addition to Anne Frank, there are a number of other children's diaries during the Holocaust which have survived; the youngest seems to be Pavel Weiner, whose diary was started at the age of 12 and was later published as Boy in Terezin: The Private Diary of Pavel Weiner, April 1944-April 1945. Alansplodge (talk) 09:39, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Zlata Filipović started her diary when she was 10 or 11 living in Sarajevo in the 90s. Princess Persnickety   (talk)  17:50, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Tracking down this image of Saint Ambrose
I'm trying to track down this plate of young Saint Ambrose and his father. Ideally I'm looking for authorship and dating information, but mainly a better image of it so it can be properly included in the Ambrose article. From glancing I thought it was a relief, but I don't have anything other than that... Aza24 (talk) 22:03, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It's a decoration on the 9th century altar of the Basilica of Sant'Ambrogio in Milan. The Italian wikipedia has an article on the altar, it's the bottom left panel in this image. A better quality image can be found on this website, but that is not freely licenced (afaik). - Lindert (talk) 22:33, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Amazing, thank you! I believe any reproductions of 2d works over 100 years old are out of copyright (though someone can correct me). Aza24 (talk) 22:52, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Trouble is, it's not really 2D, is it, so the exception we claim under PD-Art probably doesn't really hold here. Taking photographs of relief objects requires much more individual photographic decision-making and creativity (lighting, angle etc) than reproducing a drawing or painting on a flat surface. BTW, kudos to Lindert for finding it that quickly (I was on it too, but he beat me to it :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:02, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah I see... perhaps this one already on the commons will do then... it looks so different than the one in the link above, though maybe that is just the photo quality. Aza24 (talk) 01:04, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Birth date of Edmond Maître
The French wiki lists his birth date as April 23, and cites this reference which I can’t access. However, François Daulte says it was August 25 on page 23 of this 1978 catalog (PDF). I’m inclined to go with Daulte, but I could use some help. Is the former link accurate? Viriditas (talk) 23:20, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Your first reference, the Bordeaux city archives, list his birth on April 23, see BORDEAUX 1 E 190 - Registre des actes de naissance de Bordeaux, section 1, 1840 - 1840, commentaires : Table annuelle en fin de registre, #465/1840, view: 221 sur 229. The original birth certificate #465/1840 in the same source is on view 70 sur 229. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 00:04, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Is it safe to assume that this official record is correct and the citation by Daulte is in error? Or is there an alternate explanation for the discrepancy? Viriditas (talk) 00:10, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The official record is correct. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 00:16, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks again, Pp.paul.4. I added your information to User:Viriditas/Edmond_Maître, which is not quite ready for prime time. Please make any changes to it that you think are necessary. Viriditas (talk) 23:19, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * His death certificate (within Cote V4E 8548) at the Paris archives is in accordance to what the French wikipedia article says. There is no permalink button there to link the record itself, only buttons to download or print it, hence here only the search mask leading to it. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 23:45, 9 January 2022 (UTC)