Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 July 25

= July 25 =

Do some Britons perceive Rishi Sunak as somehow foreigner?
Rishi Sunak is born and bred English. But do Britons somehow perceive him as foreigner? Is there any way to measure the maybe unconscious bias against him? Bumptump (talk) 12:02, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Undoubtably some do, but then again some believe the Earth to be flat.
 * Yes, it could be measured: someone would need to commission a nationwide scientifically based opinion poll (which could be designed to uncover unconscious bias) from a reputable company such as Gallup. This could not be done quickly or cheaply. There may be other means, which perhaps others will suggest. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.201.73.20 (talk) 12:46, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * But what method can discover unconscious bias in a population? Some would not like him for rational reasons, like his wife having Non-dom status. And some might rationalize their dislike for the same reason. It's not like you can ask people if their unconscious bias is affecting their preferences. --Bumptump (talk) 13:08, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * If there is no way to find that out, then you've just answered your own question. -- Jayron 32 14:33, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * As I understand it, the major factor is that his wife is one of the richest women on the planet. 2A00:23C5:E148:1D01:D549:172D:2E7C:BFE3 (talk) 14:44, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Her being rich isn't an issue, her possibly shady tax affairs are. Fgf10 (talk) 07:29, 26 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Unconscious biases can (I'm fairly sure) be identified by applying techniques from Psychometrics to the survey questions. I myself have taken psychometric tests in the course of job interviews, and have been impressed by how well they can identify underlying psychological characteristics and attitudes without seeming to ask about them directly. One need not rely on questionees' conscious self-knowledge, or honesty.
 * An observation on terminology. I live close to where Sunak was both born and schooled. I would not describe him as English, but rather British, just as I would not describe someone born and raised in England of Nigerian or Chinese parentage as English, or for that matter someone English-born of Welsh or Scottish parentage as English. Similarly, I would not describe the erstwhile Prime Minister Boris Johnson as American, even though he was born in New York. Others may differ. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.201.73.20 (talk) 19:13, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * This issue has came up in the context of Idris Elba who as per our article: "". The agreement has been it's accurate to describe his nationality as English (as per MOS:ETHNICITY, biographies generally cover someone's nationality when they were notable in the lead rather than their ethnicity), based on several things including self identification Talk:Idris Elba/Archive 1, Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive280 & Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive310. Nil Einne (talk) 12:16, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Sunak's wife did not call herself a Briton until her tax breaks were publicized. He and his wife both hold U.S. green cards. He's not a foreigner but it's not unreasonable to doubt his allegiance. Imagine Reason (talk) 21:04, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I think British colonial past also comes into play. Since Company rule in India and British Raj a certain number of Indians integrated into British society as British Indians and many of them speak English at near native level. Bombay Sapphire is also an example of that. Brandmeistertalk  21:13, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Many British Indians are native English speakers. DuncanHill (talk) 11:48, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, Sunak was born in Southampton where English is widely understood. Alansplodge (talk) 12:12, 26 July 2022 (UTC)


 * In a global economy, it might in some ways be useful to consider the very rich as being a 'nationality' that transcends geographical and political identities. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.201.73.20 (talk) 09:10, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Eduardo Saverin was an example who received negative attention in the U.S. -- AnonMoos (talk) 22:39, 27 July 2022 (UTC)


 * The meme around this is that it is inappropriate for the super-rich to run the country.  This is why journalists ambush people like Rishi Sunak with questions like "What's the price of a loaf of bread?" or "How much is a pint of milk?"   The replies are not very accurate - Boris Johnson didn't hide in a fridge but he did duck the question.


 * I'm not pointing the finger here - the last time I was in a pub beer was three shillings a pint, then a few days ago I read a report saying the price of cider had topped four pounds a pint.  Journalists take advantage - for example, when Rishi did a photo-op after his spring statement . 2A00:23C5:E148:1D01:4945:3810:F476:9E4C (talk) 10:24, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * What does allegiance have to do with it? --Lambiam 10:55, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Surely everything (or at least a lot) when it comes to foreignness. I would see someone who owes allegiance to a foreign power as being to some extent foreign, regardless of where they were born or raised. DuncanHill (talk) 11:48, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * What about "citizens of the world" who choose not to own allegiance to any nation-state but only to humanity? Does that make them foreign in your eyes? --Lambiam 12:08, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Those of us from an older generation were inculcated from childhood with the idea of the Commonwealth family and even in the 1960s, Commonwealth Day was still an event at school where belonging to a wider grouping of nations with shared values was celebrated. We also grew up (certainly in London) with the children of Commonwealth migrants, who might have had different customs at home but certainly weren't foreign. So I think that only those on the extreme far-right of the political spectrum might regard a British Asian like Mr Sunak as "foreign". Alansplodge (talk) 12:08, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The allegiance query is to do with the Green Card. The USA is a foreign power. DuncanHill (talk) 14:07, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, apologies. I was thinking of the infamous Cricket test. Alansplodge (talk) 08:17, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * And green card holders are viewed as "foreigners" by many in the United States, although legally a green card holder is a "US person" with fewer rights than a US citizen, still being subject to their native country (which in this case would be the UK). They cannot vote in US elections, but can work legally, own property, pay taxes on both domestic and foreign holdings, and collect Social Security benefits. Lower in teir would be those in the US on a visa, who cannot collect Social Security although they must still pay the taxes. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:12, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Obtaining a Green Card does not involve allegiance issues; these come only into play for naturalization. --Lambiam 11:42, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Golden visa seems comprehensive. 80.43.241.98 (talk) 12:02, 27 July 2022 (UTC)