Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 June 17

= June 17 =

Turkish Latin script in the 19th century
Wonder about this Turkish inscription. It says "yil 1823" (year 1823), yet written in Latin script rather than Ottoman Turkish used at the time. Does it mean the plate was actually made after the introduction of Latin script in the 1920s, just to say that the restoration itself was made in 1823? More of a sanity check on my behalf, thanks. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 17:11, 17 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Purely observational, but I think I can see four bolt heads on the plaque, so perhaps it has been superimposed over an earlier inscription? Alansplodge (talk) 17:49, 17 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Mahmud II, mentioned in the inscription, reigned 1808-1839.  It might be helpful to have a translation. 2A00:23C5:C719:7201:1A:5EB9:69D5:D178 (talk) 18:18, 17 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Our Uzunköprü Bridge article says that the bridge was restored and widened by 150 cm (5 ft) in 1964-1971, which suggests that the original parapet was replaced at that time. A restoration is currently underway to restore the bridge (a World Heritage Site candidate) to its original appearance. Alansplodge (talk) 19:15, 17 June 2022 (UTC)


 * The text on the plaque is given here as the Turkish translation of this text in Ottoman Turkish (although transliterated to the Latin alphabet): "Emr-i bi imaret-i hazel cisr el-müşeyyed es-Sultan el-Gazi Mahmut Han ibn Abdülhamit Han halled-Allahü tealâ mülkehu an hüma li sene seman ve selasün ve mieteyn ve elf. 1238." This is largely abracadabra to present-day Turks who have not studied Ottoman Turkish (basically everyone except a few historians). Conversely, few Turks in 1823 would have been able to decipher the Latin letters; the orthography is decidedly modern. The year 1823 is also a dead giveaway that this is a modern plaque. The text on the plaque is: "Sultan Abdülhamit I. oğlu Sultan 2. Mahmut bu sağlam ırmak köprüsünün onarılmasını buyurdu. Tanrı ülkelerini kalımlı günahlarını bağıslayıcı kılsin. Yıl 1823." Translation: "Sultan Mahmud II, son of Sultan Abdulhamid I, ordered the repair of this sturdy river bridge. May God make the countries lasting, their sins forgiven. Year 1823." --Lambiam 20:31, 17 June 2022 (UTC)


 * In the nineteenth century, many Muslims would have though it to be religiously impious to write a language spoken by large numbers of Muslims in any other alphabet than Arabic... AnonMoos (talk) 22:32, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Agreed, and I think Lambiam's point above is that 1823 would have been expressed as 1238 AH before Ataturk's reforms in the 1920s. Alansplodge (talk) 16:18, 18 June 2022 (UTC)