Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 June 19

= June 19 =

Source for painting of Vasco de Quiroga
I'm cleaning a bunch of articles on early New Spain because... umm... I think I started out with the African Union? Anyway, there's a lot of historical paintings whose copyright has clearly expired but that were uploaded without attribution. Just a gallery would be 98% sufficient, since a lot of the painters are unknown. Reverse image of course just shows copies of copies of misattribution or no attribution, so can someone steer me in a good direction? SamuelRiv (talk) 03:53, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The image was copied from this page, which does not identify anything further about the painting. But, perhaps, its location is in Pátzcuaro, like in the Basilica. --Lambiam 07:58, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

The Texas Revolution was a civil war?
The Texas Revolution is listed on the list of civil wars. How was it a civil war? 86.131.245.130 (talk) 18:33, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Civil war generally requires 3 components:


 * 1. multiple organized armed groups


 * 2. all of them exists within the same Sovereign state


 * 3. a state of war exists between them


 * In Texas Revolution's case, the two opposing groups were the Texian Army and the Centralist Republic of Mexico military. Both groups existed within the Centralist Republic of Mexico, and they fought a war against each other. So all three criteria fits. Daniel T Wolters (talk) 18:48, 19 June 2022 (UTC)


 * That definition (whose is it?) seems oddly broad, since merely existing within the same state means any foreign non-official actors (so their actions arguably will not effectively change the borders of the state) can fight as a partisan militia, or as terrorists, or other possibilities and presumably be within its scope. There are multiple definitions in the civil war article, and for the most part they are narrower definitions in which the state has some recognition or authority over the armed groups, legal or de facto. Though since the Americans were legal settlers, the Texas Revolution would still be a civil war. SamuelRiv (talk) 19:30, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The Texas Revolution, the American Civil War, and the American Revolution were all (at least attempted) wars of secession. The thing that's not clear to me is why you would put the first two on the list, and leave out the third.  To be clear, this has nothing to do with which side had the better moral position in any of the wars.  --Trovatore (talk) 19:49, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The Texas Republic and the Confederacy were geographically adjacent to what they were trying to secede from, while the Thirteen Colonies were separated by more than a thousand miles of ocean from Britain, and there was no fighting in Britain (only a few attempts to capture ships off its coasts). There was limited fighting between the 13 Colonies and non-seceding British North American colonies (Quebec and the Maritimes), but they were also somewhat geographically distant, and the 13 Colonies weren't seceding from them... AnonMoos (talk) 21:57, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Ahem... John Paul Jones leads American raid on Whitehaven, England. Alansplodge (talk) 15:31, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
 * They were quite minor raids, one an extension of his attacks on British shipping, and the other apparently for personal revenge... AnonMoos (talk) 22:59, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Hmm, but there was fighting between pro- and anti-independence Americans. Our article is at loyalist (American Revolution).  Granted that's a slightly different point from tgehe one I initially made. --Trovatore (talk) 03:34, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
 * There were no pitched battles directly between Patriots and Loyalists as far as I'm aware. The Patriots relied on the British army, or fought in the British Legion.  If the conflict had been between Patriots and Loyalists without any British involved, then the Loyalists would probably have been overwhelmed quickly, and it wouldn't really have been much of a "war"... AnonMoos (talk) 04:17, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
 * At issue is that the civil war article does not cover colonial secession (nor does it seem to address the concept prior to the modern nation state). I'd like to find some academic sources on this, but it would seem that a rebellion by an autonomous state would be a civil war, by a colony is a secession, and by a modern dependent territory may be uncertain? What exclusively separates those three polities is also unclear from the articles. SamuelRiv (talk) 22:45, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
 * If the secession succeeds, it was a revolution. If it fails, it was a civil war. History is written by the victors. --Lambiam 09:43, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

How was Snowdon related to Lloyd George?
Lord Snowdon's aunt Gwendolyn, daughter of Robert Armstrong-Jones, was a bridesmaid at the wedding of Olwen Lloyd George (daughter of David), and Thos. Carey Evans. In reports of the time she is described as the bride's cousin. I haven't been able to work out the exact relationship. I think it will be on the Lloyd side, there was at least one marriage to a Jones there. Robert A-J's parents were both Joneses (that is his mother was a Jones before she married a Jones). Can anyone help? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 19:05, 19 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't think they can have been first cousins, which means a common grandparent. Sir Robert's father was Rev. Thomas Jones, none of whose children seem to have married a Lloyd, and his mother was Jane Elizabeth Jones, the only child of Robert Jones. However, that last Robert Jones lived in Cricieth, so some earlier connection is more than possible. Alansplodge (talk) 12:26, 20 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Hello again. Robert Armstrong-Jones, father of the bridesmaid had a sister who married Robert Davies Evans, and their son Thomas Carey-Evans married Olwen Lloyd George, so the bridesmaid was at any rate first cousin of the groom.  Source: .  Fallible journalism, maybe? --Antiquary (talk) 18:54, 20 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Curiously, the link above for Rev. Thomas Jones shows that Sir Robert had four younger brothers but no mention of a sister, while thepeerage.com - Dr. R. D. Evans fails to mention the name of his wife. Alansplodge (talk) 12:32, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Dr R D Evans had 5 sons (including Thomas) and at least one daughter, not listed there. Peerage.com is a useful resource, but not a reliable source. DuncanHill (talk) 12:42, 21 June 2022 (UTC)


 * That link doesn't name Sir Robert Armstrong-Jones's sisters, true, but it does say he had three of them. --Antiquary (talk) 12:41, 21 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Okay, Robert Davies Evans' obituary in the BMJ says that he "married Elizabeth Ann Jones, eldest daughter of the Rev. Thomas Jones of Eisteddfa, and the sister of two medical men, Sir Robert Armstrong-Jones and Colonel J. Lloyd T. Jones I.M.S...." Alansplodge (talk) 12:48, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Eisteddfa is now an upmarket holiday rental and is advertised as "The former home of Prime Minister Lloyd George's daughter, the house is still owned by the family". Alansplodge (talk) 12:53, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Theology BA and MDiv
If I get Theology BA in Europe, is it equal to MDiv in the US? - Prücsök (talk) 19:32, 19 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Not according to our article on Master of Divinity, which suggests you'd need an additional "three or four years of seminary or divinity school". Shantavira|feed me 09:02, 20 June 2022 (UTC)