Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 March 17

= March 17 =

Where is "Nosonovskij Pesok"?
The information for the top picture on Nenets_people states that it was taken in Nosonovskij Pesok in Russia. Does anyone know or can work out where this is? All searches on Wikipedia and Google either come up with nothing, or assorted references to people named Nosonovskij, or to other copies of that photo that don't contain any more details. Iapetus (talk) 18:40, 17 March 2022 (UTC)


 * The name appears in Nansen's book Gjennom Sibir (snippet view), also ""Nosonovskij Ostrov" (Остров = "island"), but I couldn't make much sense of it. A possibility is Nosok Island, north of Sibiryakov Island, which appears to be on or near the route of Nansen's Fram expedition in 1893-1896. Alansplodge (talk) 19:09, 17 March 2022 (UTC)


 * There's a whole chapter in "Through Siberia", the photo in question appears opposite page 88. I haven't found "Nosonovski(j)" in the text, either, the location seems to be near the mouth of the Yenisei River. песок may mean "sand". --Wrongfilter (talk) 19:20, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The islands are known collectively by the name of Brekhovskie Ostrova. Our destination was the most north-easterly of these islands, Nosónovski Ostrov (i.e. Nose Island), which, by the way, is divided into two islands by a strait.p.80
 * At last we turned the point of the southern Nosónovski Island and approached the lighters, which lay at anchor there to the south of the shore, off Nosónovski Pesók (i.e. sand), where there were some  houses and tents on land.p. 82


 * Wikidata: Brekhovskie Islands. Apparently we lack an English language article, but see ru:Бреховские острова. Alansplodge (talk) 19:36, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
 * And as far as my limited knowledge of cyrillic letters allows me to tell this is Nasonovskij. There's also a map in the book (opposite p.16) that shows it.--Wrongfilter (talk) 19:38, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, Nasonovskij. Not quite the same as Nosonovskij, but probably the same place nonetheless. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:16, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
 * See Akanye or Vowel reduction in Russian for why one shouldn't worry too much about the disctinction between a and o in Russian. --Wrongfilter (talk) 06:21, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
 * That's true for spoken Russian, but the distinction is still made in writing. Otherwise we'd be reading спасиба instead of спасибо (both pr. spaseeba), Чехав instead of Чехов (both pr. Chehav), and Масква instead of Мoсква (both pr. Maskva). But we don't. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:48, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, yes, yes, you're right. Now go complain to OSM that they got it wrong. And leave me alone. --Wrongfilter (talk) 06:57, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
 * If that's how you want to carry on, I'll gladly have nothing to do with you ever again. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  01:28, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. Good detective-work. Iapetus (talk) 19:52, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I have added a section to our Yenisey article, with a redirect from Brekhovskie Islands and included a very brief mention of Nosonovskij Ostrov, so it should appear in future searches. I have also expanded the text of the image at Nenets people. Alansplodge (talk) 19:55, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Independent reporting of Kyiv meeting?
It's widely reported that the prime ministers of PL, CZ, and SI travelled to Kyiv to meet with UA president Zelinskyy. Sources for all the reporting that I've noticed so far seems to be agencies of the mentioned governments. Is it conventional for independent news media to be present at these kinds of events? Is there any non-government primary (eyewitness) reporting, even at the level of "here is a posed photo of those 4 guys, taken in Kyiv by Reuters photographer so-and-so", documenting that this meeting happened as described? Reason for asking: John Helmer (journalist) has published a blog post claiming that the Kyiv meeting was faked (i.e. there was a real meeting, but it was in Poland, those VIP's weren't really dumb enough to risk their butts on a train trip to UA) and the pics were photoshopped to look like Kyiv. I'm wondering whether to take that seriously at all. Helmer is sort of like Craig Murray from what I can tell: not a fruitcake, but gets ahead of himself sometimes. I added a link to his biography but don't want to trigger the RS police by posting it here. Thanks. 2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA (talk) 22:20, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The event was sufficiently unique that one cannot determine what is "conventional" at these kinds of events. --Lambiam 10:25, 18 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Not sure if BBC or Reuters count as independent, but here's a news with two pictures attributed to PL prime minister's Twitter account and one to Reuters agency: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60757157 Same images posted by Deutsche Welle: https://www.dw.com/en/polish-czech-and-slovenian-leaders-show-support-to-ukraine-during-kyiv-trip/a-61129235 and by CNN: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/15/europe/european-prime-ministers-kyiv-intl/index.html Honestly, I doubt any independent press would be invited into such meeting during war. That would put some crucial safe places utilized by Ukrainian authorities at risk of exposure...--CiaPan (talk) 10:46, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
 * These images are attributed to the twitter account of Mateusz Morawiecki – not an independent source. --Lambiam 11:32, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, I thought I said it myself (as well as about the Reuters' one), but apparently I must have been wrong... --CiaPan (talk)
 * One of Helmer's arguments is that a photograph meant to record arrival at Kyiv railway station is fake, because it is actually the Przemyśl train station. The images in his blog posting are of subpar quality and without an explicit source, but a good image can be seen here. What I seem unable to find is an official statement claiming this was shot in Kyiv. All identifiable individuals in the photo are Poles. --Lambiam 11:32, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Actually, here that photograph is even reported as documenting the safe return of the delegation from Kiev to Poland. --Lambiam 11:38, 18 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Truth is the first casualty of war, and I'm prepared to accept the possibility that either side fabricates news, but I do not find any of Helmer's arguments even mildly persuasive. Or can we even call them "arguments"? Helmer: "The press which has published these pictures knows them to have been faked and has assisted in concealing the real location." A bold assertion, but there is not even the faintest attempt in the blog posting to back this up by evidence. There is no evidence that anyone ever claimed the "fake Kyiv" photo was shot in Kyiv. We cannot compare the alleged discrepancy between the Coat of arms of Ukraine seen on the wall of the meeting room in one of these blurry images (and more clearly in this video at 0:10), and "those fixed to the walls of presidential meeting rooms in Kiev". But even if we could, the meeting was almost certainly not held in the usual pre-war presidential meeting rooms, but in a different, secure and undisclosed location. All considered, I think the whole post is a hatchet job that lacks any credibility. --Lambiam 16:21, 18 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Either one person is lying or four people are lying.  Experience shows that the first scenario is the more likely.   On the subject of credibility, there's no obvious discrepancy like this one which I was reading about earlier this afternoon in Notícias em Português under the headline Opinião: A importância de votar e as armadilhas das fake news'' (Opinion: The importance of voting and the snares of "fake news".)

"Um vídeo que circulou nas rede sociais mostrava um protesto em favor do governo do Brasil que teria acontecido em frente à Embaixada do Brasil em Londres..."

"Nos mesmos dias em que o vídeo circulava, enfrentávamos temperaturas baixas e muita chuva por conta da 'tempestade Eunice'."

"O vídeo mostrava muitos brasileiros em um dia ensolarado, trajados com camisetas, shorts e vestidos com a banda brasileira."

(A video which circulated on social media showed a protest in favour of the Brazilian government that would have happened in front of the Brazilian Embassy in London...On the same days on which the video was circulating, we confronted low temperatures and much rain on account of storm Eunice.  The video showed many Brazilians on a sunny day, dressed in T-shirts, shorts and garments with the Brazilian flag.)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.30.130.69 (talk) 17:27, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks all. I hadn't even noticed Helmer's statement that the press was in on the fakeout. I thought the idea was that they had been handed a bunch of pictures by the governments so that they could report on what they were told was a meeting in Kyiv. I'm more skeptical now. Helmer is supposed to post a follow-up next week answering some comments, fwiw. 2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA (talk) 21:03, 18 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Here we have extraordinary claims with an extraordinary lack of evidence. --Lambiam 23:31, 18 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Conspiracy theorists have such a touching faith in the ability of humans to get things done and to keep them secret. I don't know where they get it from - it certainly doesn't gel with my experience of life. The people who (supposedly) made the journey to Ukraine are politicians. Even popular ones have plenty of people that don't like them. All it would need is for a railway worker or other lowly individual in on the secret to blow the whistle and the secret would be out. Apparently Helmer's "Polish source" has done exactly that, but with a wealth of local press establishments to choose from, chose to tip off a reporter based in Moscow. Yeah, right... Chuntuk (talk) 15:48, 24 March 2022 (UTC)