Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 March 30

= March 30 =

Nixon and Kissinger's support for Bangladesh genocide
Nowadays you will see lots of Americans protesting against Trump, George Bush. Why in those days Americans didn't protest against Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon?

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/30/opinion/nixon-and-kissingers-forgotten-shame.html

There are other reports that American politicians in 1971, 1972 were trying their best that, the international community should never discuss mass killings and rapes by Pakistan Army.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/30/opinion/nixon-and-kissingers-forgotten-shame.html -- Preceding unsigned comment added by Rawliht (talk  o  contribs) 02:06, 30 March 2022 (UTC)


 * The public was kept unaware of their support for Pakistan's military regime. There were mass protests, but they focussed on the US involvement in the Vietnam War (see Protests against the Vietnam War). --Lambiam 07:15, 30 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Protests against Nixon and Kissinger were rampant, though not usually about issues related to Bangladesh. As noted above, protests against U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War actually date back to the Lyndon Baines Johnson administration (one well known chant of the time was "Hey, Hey, LBJ, How Many Kids Did You Kill, Today").  Early in the Nixon Administration protest leaders like the Chicago Seven, the Weather Underground, the Students for a Democratic Society, etc.  Even during the 1968 election, BOTH parties were under fire from protesters, and Nixon was not immune from continuing protests when he took office.  The Democratic National Convention protests, organized in 1968 by the Chicago Seven, later led to the Days of Rage protests in 1969, which were definitely targeted at the Nixon administration.  (As a side note, I once had Bill Ayers as a professor, and have had dinner at his and Bernardine Dohrn's house in the early 2000s).  You also have the 1971 May Day protests, the 1970 Watergate protests (not related to the later scandal), and probably many others.  Kissinger himself has been the subject of protests as recently as 2018: -- Jayron 32 12:37, 30 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Rawliht -- Kissinger seems to have acted very poorly over what became Bangladesh (ranking the importance of the India-Soviet alliance far above all other factors), but the United States actually had somewhat limited leverage over (West) Pakistan at the time: it could have at most given Pakistan a diplomatic "red light" instead of a "green light", but Pakistan might not have chosen to change its actions in any very significant way in response to a U.S. "red light". Anyway, there were demonstrations over the U.S. role in Vietnam and demonstrations over the U.S. role in the coup in Chile (see Solidarity Movement with Chile), but apparently few people in the early 1970s thought that the U.S. government was a major direct cause of East Pakistan's woes (as opposed to passively acquiescing to them). AnonMoos (talk) 17:48, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
 * There were some protests, mostly over arms shipments to Pakistan, "blockades" of ships by Movement for a New Society. Apparently enough publicity for the International Longshoremen’s Association to take some kind of action.. The Concert for Bangladesh claims increasing awareness of arms shipments.
 * but can't find online copies for either. fiveby(zero) 19:03, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
 * but can't find online copies for either. fiveby(zero) 19:03, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
 * but can't find online copies for either. fiveby(zero) 19:03, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

16 and 17 year-old topless "page 3 girls" from back when they were legal
Reading an old (now modified) version of our article Page 3 index.php?title=Page_3&oldid=1036564071

"A number of Page 3 models, including Fox, Whittaker, and Ashby, began their topless modelling careers aged 16, which was legally permitted in the UK until the Sexual Offences Act 2003 raised the minimum age for topless modelling to 18."

My question is, what about people and institutions (such as libraries) who keep archives of old (pre-2003) versions of The Sun, which contain topless photos of 16 and 17 year olds? Are these libraries and individuals guilty of possessing child pornography?

I'm sure Great Britain has its "central library" which keeps archived versions of old newspapers, but, not being from the UK, I don't know the exact name of the institution(s) in question. (Maybe the British Library, judging by a quick google search?). Are/were they required to go through their old archives and destroy all pre-2003 "page 3s" which depict 16 and 17-year olds topless? Have they done so? If not, are they breaking the law? (Does the law contain a grandfather clause for material produced back when such material was legal?)

Obligatory disclaimer: I do not live in the U.K., so I'm not asking for legal advice. Eliyohub (talk) 04:37, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The British Library operates the Legal Deposit scheme. The law you're referring to contains a 'Legitimate Reason' defence. How far it applies on any day is anyone's guess - not very far - but the following reference may provide some clues: Another reference talking about how libraries do sometimes draw the line: Judging by their statement there, they may be obliged to restrict access to content rather than not store it, although I'm not sure how likely that is. I am sure many libraries have quietly disposed of their copies over time. -- zzuuzz (talk) 11:56, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
 * If you go to the article on the law, the change meant amending the Protection of Children Act 1978 to change the age threshold from 16 to 18. The law makes it a crime to possess "indecent" images of such persons. "Indecent" is not defined in the statute. Basically, it's "indecent" and therefore criminal if a court says it is. Commercial publications are generally going to err on the side of caution, which explains why they're not going around testing the law. --47.147.118.55 (talk) 07:01, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Fair chance you could get a more solid answer from the British Newspaper Archive of the British Library. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 01:50, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Name of Tibet
Do we know how the ancient Persians or Greeks would have called Tibet or the Tibetan Empire? Was it mentioned in one of the geographical treaties? The Great Zaganza (talk) 08:07, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
 * According to Etymology of Tibet, "It has even been suggested that this name is to be found in Ptolemy and the Periplus Maris Erythraei, a first-century Greek narrative, where the river Bautisos and a people called the Bautai are mentioned in connexion with a region of Central Asia. But we have no knowledge of the existence of Tibetans at that time. These Greek terms may be related to modern Tibetan names for their own land. However, as it notes, that as an ethnic group, it is not clear that Tibetans existed during the period of ancient Greece (That's not surprising, given the way culture and ethnicity evolve, ignoring things like the names of ethnic groups, most modern ethnic groups would not be recognizable as such that far back).  The traditional narrative of the Tibetan empire is that it traces itself back through the Yarlung dynasty, which is likely mythical; the evidence of a Tibetan state before the 8th century is tenuous at best.  Histories of the time period before then are not unlike Norse kings tracing their lineage back to Odin.  From what I am reading in Wikipedia articles, there is only the slightest evidence that the Greeks or Persians of ancient times had any awareness of people groups living on the Tibetan plateau of the time, and that there is also scant evidence of these people living in state societies at that time.  -- Jayron 32 12:06, 30 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Maybe a source mentioned in one of the articles might have some pointers: Christopher I. Beckwith, A Study of the Early Medieval Chinese, Latin, and Tibetan Historical Sources on Pre-Imperial Tibet. Indiana University PhD Dissertation (1977). AnonMoos (talk) 17:49, 30 March 2022 (UTC)


 * That is from the early medieval period, a millennium later than what is normally understood to be Ancient Greece. -- Jayron 32 18:02, 30 March 2022 (UTC)


 * However, the original questioner mentioned the Tibetan Empire..., AnonMoos (talk) 18:53, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but the chronologies don't match up. The Tibetan Empire and the Ancient Persian and Greek polities didn't coexist on earth.  It would be like asking "What did Byzantine Empire think about the U.S.?"  -- Jayron 32 11:19, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
 * ProQuest has a preview of Beckwith's 1977 dissertation, which unfortunately ends mid-introduction to Ptolemy and Ammianus Marcellinus and Baetae. For Persians, Tubbat and 9th century ...it is quite clear that the Arabs were aware of the actual location of Tibet from the earliest times &mdash; and certainly no later than when the geographer Ibn Khurdâdhbih wrote in the mid-ninth century. See also  fiveby(zero) 12:44, 31 March 2022 (UTC)


 * has Ptolemy's Βαῖται and Bod as an ethnonym, but Tibet has uncited : The Tibetan name for their land, Bod (བོད་), means 'Tibet' or 'Tibetan Plateau'. Also  fiveby(zero) 01:54, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, already had Ptolemy, here's a link to Periplus Maris Erythraei. Beckwith and Zeisler are more recent and accepting than the quote from Rolf Stein, but can't find a full copy of Étienne de La Vaissière's "The triple system of orography in Ptolemy’s Xinjiang" for the dissent. fiveby(zero) 02:20, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

What does Genetic science says about Tibetans?
Existence of Tibetan political state is different question. But has it been guessed by Genetic science since when Tibetan evolved some distinct features to make life breathable?

I know this question should go ideally in science forum but since already a topic is being discussed I prefered to ask here. -- Preceding unsigned comment added by Bookku (talk o  contribs)
 * This paper and This paper looks like an excellent start on your research. -- Jayron 32 12:02, 31 March 2022 (UTC)


 * We have an article on High-altitude adaptation in humans... -- AnonMoos (talk)

American casualties in WW2
Help me understand, as I understand it, the United States lost 405k military (161k in the war with Japan, 200k in the war with Germany and 40k in continental America who died of wounds). But the US lost 79k missing in action. There's a column in the State Department records called "declared dead," which I take to be missing persons whose death has been confirmed. But the remaining 73k missing are counted among the dead or are they counted separately? And is the Pacific front the most bloody for the United States? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.145.61.199 (talk) 09:05, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

What was before Tower Hotel?
What was on the site of Tower Hotel, London before Tower Hotel? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 22:28, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
 * St. Katherine's Church and St. Katherine's Square? fiveby(zero) 22:55, 30 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Construction began in 1970, and St Katharine Docks says the docks were closed in 1968, and most of the original warehouses around the western basin were demolished and replaced by [...] the bulky Tower Hotel. So that makes it sound like the answer is warehouses. Card Zero  (talk) 23:03, 30 March 2022 (UTC)


 * (ec)The hospital was demolished to make way for docks: St Katharine Docks, and warehouses later demolished for the hotel according to St Katharine Docks. fiveby(zero) 23:06, 30 March 2022 (UTC)


 * A vineyard till the 1147 establishment of the hospital, and a Starbucks now called "the coronarium" in homage to the hospital (the coronarium until 2000, now a Starbucks) according to Cox. fiveby(zero) 23:16, 30 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Splendid, thank you both and . I found this aerial photo from 1934 with a large warehouse on the hotel site. DuncanHill (talk) 00:34, 31 March 2022 (UTC)