Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 May 12

= May 12 =

Using female pronouns to refer to starships/spaceships
I've recently found myself looking back at some of the fictional spaceship articles that I've contributed many years ago such as those for the Battlestar Galactica, SSV Normandy, Serenity, Tantive IV, Space Battleship Yamato, and White Base, and something curious that I've noticed is the seemingly occasional, liberal, or non-uniform use of "she"/"her" to refer to the topic spaceship, much like the naval tradition of referring to water-bound ships, over "it", which would normally apply to any vehicle that isn't a seagoing vessel, and thus is far more common for people to do. The various fictions and media that have spaceships also tend to be all over the place regarding this convention as well. I remember reading a possible explanation that noted how many works of fiction tend to equate space travel with naval travel, and so many habits and terms passed on from the sailing tradition instead of the aviation field (spaceships are often worded to have "bows", "sterns", "port" and "starboard" sides instead of front, back, left and right sides; they have "decks", "bridges", "superstructures", "hulls", sometimes escape pods are called "lifeboats", they can have "sister ships", and it is not uncommon for a commander of a fleet of spaceships to be called an "admiral" rather than a "marshal"). Since sailors are notoriously some of the most superstitious people in the world, it may come as little surprise if some of those superstitions (albeit changed somewhat to fit the setting) carried over to the crew of an interstellar ark; an example that comes to mind is that whole thing about seeing a vessel like a mother figure that protects and shelters her crew, so the crew must care for "her" (their vessel) in return. Aviation terms tend to be more likely inherited by small 1 or 2-man space fighter craft than large starships that hold large complements.


 * So for example: "The GSU Arumihsi is a fine vessel. She carries a squadron of state-of-the-art fighters and the crew is unmatched in efficiency and experience, loyal to her and her captain. The vessel is currently docked at the spaceport over Mars for her retrofitting and she is expected to return to service by the next month."
 * Versus: "The Nolybab-5 is a fine vessel. Although it can only carry up to 20 people, its effectiveness lies in the ability to deliver and extract troops in and out of the battlefield swiftly. As a result, soldiers like it for its reliability. The vessel is currently undergoing plans to upgrade its armour but that aside there are no plans to replace it with another model."

So what I want to ask is: Is there actually any established way to properly refer to a spaceship or interstellar craft, whether real or fictional? Does this tend to change depending on the role or relative size of a spacecraft, or whether or not the craft is inanimate or sentient in some way (e.g. an on-board AI that talks)? Is it more commonly an author or creator's preference to do this, or would it work as a literary device, e.g. having a crew of one spaceship having this trait imply higher dedication, loyalty, camaraderie, attachment, etc. compared to the crew of other spaceships (kind of like people who give their cars names)? Does this bug a lot of people, political correctness aside (since they are ships but not seafaring ones; I've yet to see this applied to "landships"), or do most people not care or notice this convention? Does it really mean anything since we are almost always talking about fictional vehicles in this sense? I've already known the many possible reasons how the convention of female pronouns for ships came to be, but not all of those reasons can be applied to spaceships.

As an aside question, I am aware that this practice is predominantly an English convention, but are there other languages/cultures that refer to naval vessels with female pronouns, embodiments, or have something similar? Such as a language having words that mean "boat" or "ship" in feminine case? I think I've read somewhere that Russian sailors called ships by male pronouns (much like Klingons do), and amongst the Kriegsmarine the battleships Bismarck and Admiral Scheer were often spoken of with male pronouns, though this was in reference to their power, not their names. Or for example, I got high doubts that the Japanese see their ships as feminine in any way, but then again the mobile game Kantai Collection is a thing, though I get the feeling that proved popular because of anthropomorphism, rather than because of any culture surrounding the ships themselves. --72.234.12.37 (talk) 03:59, 12 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Spaceships are generally feminine, but space stations are neuter, e.g. Babylon 5, Deep Space 9. The Death Star article says it's a "mobile space station", but isn't that just a spaceship? (In any case, it's not a "she".) Here's a not-so-serious article titled On a lighter note: Gender clash for ships, spaceships and possibly buildings as well. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:56, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * In contrast to Western convention of feminine pronouns, I've worked with Turkish, Russian, and Chinese military in the distant past. They referred to ships with male pronouns when speaking English. I asked and the Turkish and Russians said that in their own language, they use male pronouns. The Chinese said that they refer to ships as simply ship or boat. They don't often use pronouns beyond me, you, us, and them. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 11:54, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * In french the pronoun used to refer to a ship depends on the noun. The masculine pronoun would be correct if you were thinking "bateau" (boat), the feminine if you were thinking "navire" (ship). Spacecraft are generally referred to as "vaisseaux" (vessels) so if you were thinking that, you'd use the masculine pronoun, although youd still correctly use the feminine to refer to a space shuttle or rocket. 2A01:E34:EF5E:4640:8813:B4F1:7BBA:DE0B (talk) 13:56, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Navire is masculine in French. To get a feminine term for a ship, you could use "frégate" or "caravelle" for example; in both of these cases, the ship would then be refered to in the feminine. E.g. "La frégate «Hermione» est une réplique du navire de guerre français [...] Elle réalise ensuite d'autres navigations..." --Xuxl (talk) 15:11, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * You're absolutely correct; I don't know what made me think that navire was feminine. In general speakers of languages with a grammatical gender have no problem with apparent gender incongruity or switching and really don't confuse grammatical and sexual gender : Jerry from Tom and Jerry can be referred to using the feminine to accord with mouse. 2A01:E34:EF5E:4640:8813:B4F1:7BBA:DE0B (talk) 22:36, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Italian battleship were traditionally feminine and so are they till today for most autors, e.g. "L'Amerigo Vespucci". Only the Marine Ministry makes them masculine since 1924 in all official writings. All large civil ships are feminine, this is consisten with the Italian word for ship, "nave", being feminine.
 * Large civil vessels as well as battleships are also in German feminine: "die Bismark", "die Gneisenau", even if the German word's genus is neutrum: "das Schiff". 2003:F5:6F0C:7E00:6948:4949:104B:7215 (talk) 01:54, 13 May 2022 (UTC) Marco PB
 * One of the nice things about speculative fiction is that you can make up your own linguistic conventions. I'm not sure what Clarityfiend means that spaceships are "generally" feminine; I think this depends very much on the author.
 * Samuel R. Delany used a convention in Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand whereby humans of either sex took feminine pronouns by default, but a speaker who was sexually interested in another person would use masculine pronouns for that person. It was surprisingly easy to follow after a while.
 * Just by the way, it's probably more exact to say "feminine pronouns" than "female pronouns". Pronouns have grammatical gender; they don't have gametes. --Trovatore (talk) 19:21, 12 May 2022 (UTC)


 * In German, we certainly use female feminine pronouns for ships - and as far as I can tell, even for the Bismarck, no matter what Sabaton (band) claims. There may be some exceptions, but they are rare. And at least on TV, it's "die Enterprise", not "der Enterprise" or "das Enterprise". A space ship is still a ship ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 01:52, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Feminine pronouns. In German I think it's weiblich for both?  But in English there's a distinction. --Trovatore (talk) 02:03, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * One can use weibliches Fürwort, but a scholar may be inclined to use feminines Pronomen. --Lambiam 06:27, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Some modern scholars might also use weibliches Pronomen, but feminines Fürwort would feel very much out of date (though perfectly clear). ;-) --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:48, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * (ec)Thanks. I was just following the header without thinking. But are you sure that is a hard rule? When I do random googling, I find both variants quite frequently, and even in rather formal documents. And when I use Google ngrams, I get a 4:1 preference of "masculine pronoun" over "male pronoun" and a 3:1 for feminine vs. female. That is a clear majority, but the male/female does not seem rare enough to be just wrong. Maybe it's a local variants issue? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:45, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I think the way it works in German is you refer to the vessel with the feminine article when referring to it by its proper name. But the pronoun used depends on the gender of the previous noun, which isn’t always the name of the vessel. Here are some examples from German wiki to illustrate.70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:29, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Grammatically gendered articles for types of vessels
 * Der Lenkwaffen-Zerstörer Rommel war ein Kriegsschiff : The(masculine article) guided missile destroyer(masculine noun) Rommel was a warship
 * Das U-Boot Wilhelm Bauer liegt als Museumsboot : The(neuter article) submarine(neuter noun) Wilhelm Bauer is a museum boat
 * Die Hubinsel Barbara war eine Erprobungsplattform : The(feminine article) jack-up rig(feminine noun) Barbara was a test platform


 * Feminine article when referring to vessel by name
 * Nachdem die Rommel fertiggestellt war, wurde sie nach Boston verlegt : After the(feminine article) Rommel was completed, she was relocated to Boston
 * Am 27. April 1984 wurde die Wilhelm Bauer als Museum eröffnet : On April 27, 1984 the(feminine article) Wilhelm Bauer was opened as a museum
 * Die Barbara diente der Erprobung von Waffen der Bundesmarine : The(feminine article) Barbara tested weapons for the German navy
 * Die Kalev ist ein 1967 gebautes Binnenminensuchboot : The(feminine article) Kalev is a minesweeper(grammatically neuter noun) built in 1967


 * Pronouns matching preceding noun by grammatical gender
 * Als Erprobungsboot diente es bis zum 28. August 1968 : It [noun in preceding sentence: the boat(grammatically neuter)] served as a test boat until August 28, 1968
 * Sie war der Wehrtechnischen Dienststelle 71 in Eckernförde zugeordnet : She [noun in preceding sentence: the rig(grammatically feminine)] was assigned to the Wehrtechnische Dienststelle 71 in Eckernförde
 * Nach knapp 28 Jahren im Einsatz wurde sie Mitte des Jahres 1995 außer Dienst gestellt : After almost 28 years in service, she [noun in preceding sentence: name of vessel] was decommissioned in mid-1995


 * See also Naming conventions (ships): Ships may be referred to by either feminine pronouns ("she", "her") or neutral pronouns ("it", "its"). Either usage is acceptable, but each article should be internally consistent and exclusively employ only one style. As with all optional styles, articles should not be changed from one style to another without clear and substantial reason.
 * Whether spaceships fall under this purview or not might be a moot point. Alansplodge (talk) 10:24, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Was Antonin Scalia a member of the NRA?
Was Antonin Scalia a member of the National Rifle Association? I heard a reputable historian claim that on a podcast, but a web search doesn't turn up any confirmation. Does anyone know a good source to determine that for sure? I was goingn to mention it on District of Columbia v. Heller. -- Beland (talk) 12:21, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I can't find anything either; however I think that even if you could find a reliable source, including it in that article represents a non sequitur and probably not appropriate; the only reason to include the information is to generate some sort of controversy over Scalia's involvement in deciding the case for the majority; and UNLESS significant reliable sources also drew such an explicit connection, it would be inappropriate for the Wikipedia article to, even by vague implication. Which is to say, unless other sources explicitly note Scalia's NRA connections and its influence over his decision, Wikipedia should not so mention it in any way either.  And we don't even have any sources which say that Scalia was an NRA member, never mind that it comes up in connection with analyses of the case.  Basically 1) I can't find any sources to say he was and 2) Even so, I also can't find any sources that say he was AND where those sources are primarily about the DC v. Heller case.  You would need #2 to exist before the Wikipedia article on the Heller case should mention it.  -- Jayron 32 12:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * When he died, the NRA (technically, the NRA-ILA) wrote a long obituary about him (here). If he was a member of the NRA at any point, you would think they would have mentioned it. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 14:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, bringing it up (if true) might weaken the contention that Scalia's position on gun rights flowed forth purely from his being "a stalwart defender of the U.S. Constitution". --Lambiam 06:15, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * But we should only bring it up (if true) if other reliable sources also bring it up. To bring it up (if true) in Wikipedia where such association between his not-as-yet established membership and his decision in said case, but where Wikipedia is the only place that makes such association, even by mentioning it in the article on DC v Heller, is a classic example of a novel synthesis and we should avoid that.  -- Jayron 32 12:32, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I meant, the NRA–ILA bringing it up (if true) might weaken their contention that Scalia was not motivated by the interests of gun lovers. IMO, contrary to what was presumed above, the fact that the obituary by the NRA–ILA does not mention a presumed membership carries no weight against the hypothesis that he was a member – completely separate from the issue whether verified membership should be reported on here. --Lambiam 19:51, 13 May 2022 (UTC)