Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 November 4

= November 4 =

German church terminology
In churches of the Prussian Union tradition, with – as I understand it – their policy of deliberate ambiguity about the nature of the Eucharist, did they opt to use the Lutheran term altar (Altar) or the Reformed term communion table (Abendmahlstisch)? In other words, what would you "officially" call the structure at the front of the Magdeburg or Berlin cathedrals? Lazar Taxon (talk) 15:22, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Both articles at de.wikipedia seem to use the word "altar" when describing it. See de:Magdeburger Dom and de:Berliner Dom.  -- Jayron 32 16:12, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

another German altar question
Speaking of altars in Protestant cathedrals in Germany (or half-Protestant, anyway), could anybody find a photo of the altar in the Cathedral of St Peter, Bautzen which shows the captions of the "Shield of the Trinity" diagram clearly (so that they're all readable)? I don't think there is one on Commons (File:Bautzen_-_Dom_in_29_ies.jpg has flowers in the way, while the central node captions are not legible in File:Bautzen, Dom St. Petri 1430-1664, Altartisch, Barock, RvH 20070706.jpg). Thanks for any help... AnonMoos (talk) 23:36, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
 * You asked the same question eleven years ago. Clicking on the image enlarges it so that you can read in the corner nodes "Pater", "Filius" and [learned guess] "Spiritus Sanctus", in the links "non est" over "est" and in the middle node [learned guess] "Deus" or the Tetragrammaton. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 16:44, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
 * PS: In the picture with the flowers the middle node caption is clearly legible and it reads "Deus". --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 16:49, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Whatever -- I don't need any help with the standard typical diagram captions (which are extremely familiar to me). However, there's something additional going on around the center node (besides the standard typical diagram captions), and this additional material is simply not legible or visible in the existing Commons images... AnonMoos (talk) 19:42, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, that is difficult to decipher, but you can make out the trisagion "Sanctus Deus", "Sanctus fortis", "Sanctus [learned guess] immortalis". --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 21:54, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Maybe, but I'd be interested to see a photo where you can simply read those captions without having to strain your eyes or guess.. AnonMoos (talk) 07:37, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

The Brotherhood
In we read that on Sunday 25th March 1934 Headlam went "to Middlesboro' for 'The Brotherhood' meeting - this very tiresome engagement is one that is really quite impossible to escape ... [my speech] seemed to go down all right accompanied by extemporary prayers, hymns, a loud orchestra and a trombone solo ...". So who were The Brotherhood"? The index only describes them as a religious movement. Headlam himself was Anglican, but his constituency largely Non-Conformist, and the extemporary prayers and trombones do sound rather chapel to me. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 15:55, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Just a guess, the term "Brotherhood" has a historic association with some organizations in the Scouting movement. In Britain, the term "The Brotherhood" was used for what was officially the British Boy Scouts and British Girl Scouts Association, which was an offshoot of British scouting often sponsored by free churches (nonconformists).  The went basically defunct during and after WWII, but it was revived during the 80s and 90s.  Maybe it's it? -- Jayron 32 16:05, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * There's also Brotherhood Church, though that's from near Leeds rather than Middlesb(o)ro(ugh). -- Jayron 32 16:19, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Could also be the Plymouth Brethren, which were a more widespread religious movement throughout the UK. If I had to guess among my three suggestions, this is probably going to be the most fruitful path for you to follow in your research.  -- Jayron 32 16:21, 4 November 2022 (UTC)


 * A more likely candidate is the Brotherhood Church, "a Christian anarchist and pacifist community", founded in 1887. They get a mention in The churches and the iron and steel industry in Middlesbrough 1890-1914; a quick scan through failed to locate exactly where, however Appendix II on p. 138 (147/169) shows that in 1904, the Brethren in Middlesborough had 416 people attending their services at four locations in the town, including the YMCA and the Co-Operative Hall. Alansplodge (talk) 16:43, 4 November 2022 (UTC)


 * But would it have been phrased such as the OP has quoted? Like, if you were going to a Brotherhood church, would you say you were going to "the Brotherhood" or would you just say you were going to church? I have no idea; it just sounds like odd usage to me. Matt Deres (talk) 18:56, 4 November 2022 (UTC)


 * FWIW Headlam puts "The Brotherhood" in quotations marks both times he uses the words. He says there were "some 400-500 men of all ages" and it was in the afternoon. He also calls it a "crude but harmless form of religion". DuncanHill (talk) 10:39, 5 November 2022 (UTC)


 * My father joined the Plymouth Brethren and attended meetings in Cowley but was disfellowshipped because they considered my mother, who remained a member of the Church of England, as "unclean".  Before that he preached at the Elim Pentecostal Church in north Oxford.   When we attended services there we "went to church."   The Brethren gatherings, which presumably took place in a hall, were never referred to as anything other than "meetings".   There is a Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses beside the railway station.   From the outside it looks much like a church, but bearing in mind that the organisation's original name was "The Bible Students" they have never claimed that their meetings take place in a church.   It appears that if an organisation describes itself as a church, its buildings may also be described as churches and attendees will "go to church."   The Gospel Centre by Hornsey railway station is a church and attendees say they are "going to church".   A Church conducts services in the study room of a local library on Sundays.   The  Kingsway International Christian Centre, which moved from the old Hackney Wick dog track in Waterden Road to a commercial building in Walthamstow, describes its premises as churches (the same applies to their premises in Nigeria).   Likewise the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God, with headquarters at the former Rainbow Theatre in Finsbury Park and premises elsewhere. 92.19.172.198 (talk) 11:39, 5 November 2022 (UTC)


 * OK, putting together bits and pieces from newspaper reports in the 1930s, and a book listing on Abebooks, it seems to be that the Brotherhood Movement "arose across multiple Protestant denominations in the early years of the Twentieth Century, was described by one contemporary observer as "a modern vehicle for the expression of virile Christianity and for emphasizing the distinctly masculine appeal of religion"". It included a Ministerial Fellowship, with Clergy and Ministers "of all the Churches, Established and Noncomformist". It was related to the Pleasant Sunday Afternoon Movement. DuncanHill (talk) 11:57, 5 November 2022 (UTC)


 * That seems related to Muscular Christianity... AnonMoos (talk) 23:35, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
 * @DuncanHill I could not find a report of this specific meeting in the local press, but BNA has a report on a Brotherhood meeting in Stockton the same weekend - the speaker was A. V. Alexander, "president-elect of the National Brotherhood movement". So politically ecumenical as well as religiously, it seems. There was also a notice of the Middlesbrough meeting the weekend before (including "the Concord male voice quartet"). One was in a temperance hall, the other in a Wesleyan hall, and the programs do seem to very much fit with the summary you quote. Andrew Gray (talk) 18:00, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Ancient Greek painting lost to history. Dispute over merits of Greek and Roman art

 * As for painting, Greek painting was utterly lost: Neoclassicist painters imaginatively revived it, partly through bas-relief friezes, mosaics and pottery painting, and partly through the examples of painting and decoration of the High Renaissance of Raphael's generation, frescos in Nero's Domus Aurea, Pompeii and Herculaneum, and through renewed admiration of Nicolas Poussin. Much "Neoclassical" painting is more classicizing in subject matter than in anything else. A fierce, but often very badly informed, dispute raged for decades over the relative merits of Greek and Roman art, with Winckelmann and his fellow Hellenists generally being on the winning side.

This passage is from the article on neoclassicism. Can anyone expound on these two topics? What is meant by Greek painting being utterly lost? Do they mean lost to history due to the ravages of time, or something else? And what is the "fierce dispute" over the merits of Greek and Roman art? Viriditas (talk) 23:57, 4 November 2022 (UTC)


 * "Lost" means that all Greek paintings were destroyed or wasted away. The fierce debate was over "relative merits", i. e. what did the Greeks do and invent in painting and what did the Romans do and invent, which is kinda hard to tell apart, because all Greek originals are destroyed and Roman art and culture was so heavily influenced by and amalgamated with Greek art and culture. --2003:EF:170A:9207:6473:4969:7E78:F45C (talk) 01:33, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Take a look at a Greek funerary relic like The Exaltation of the Flower and read the section on analysis of the Ionian influence and make note of the images.  A lot of these designs (such as the Harpy Tomb) look like they were originally based on drawings or paintings at some point.  In other words, can we infer things about putative paintings from other work that has withstood the test of time? Viriditas (talk) 02:06, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Not all Ancient Greek paintings have been lost. --Lambiam 03:08, 6 November 2022 (UTC)