Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 October 30

= October 30 =

Are Turkish crypto-Jews eligible for Israeli citizenship?
There are still some crypto-Jews in Turkey (see Sabbateans and Dönmeh; I know a few of them). Are they Jewish according to the Law of Return and can they claim Israeli citizenship? A455bcd9 (talk) 14:15, 30 October 2022 (UTC)


 * I think so., which . There aren't any exclusions by where you're coming from. I'm not sure if these people would be considered to be practicing, since they're pretending to be another religion, and Jews who have converted to another religion are excluded. However, they could convert officially back to Judaism, which would make them Jews again. Augusthorsesdroppings10 (talk) 16:45, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, if they convert to Judaism, they would be eligible for sure. But they didn't in practice convert to another religion (unless we consider Sabbateans as another religion, which is possible), so would they be considered as converts (not eligible) or not (eligible)? A455bcd9 (talk) 17:54, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
 * This is an opinion column so I don't know how reliable it is, but it suggests generally crypto-Jews need to have their Jewishness recognised by local Jewish communities where they reside which may require some form of conversion, although it seems to suggest that potentially it could be recognised without conversion. However some communities fearful of persecution have decided against recognising even converts. [//jewishjournal.com/commentary/opinion/340054/israel-has-abandoned-latin-americas-crypto-jews/] Nil Einne (talk) 18:37, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, it's an interesting parallel because according to Sephardic Bnei Anusim, even though Sephardic Bnei Anusim are not recognized as Jews: "there is a path of "return" for individuals, written about in a letter by HaRav Mordechau Eliahu in 1995, and an official "return certificate" he created that has been in use [...] Therefore a person who can *prove* their mother's Jewish lineage will be given by a Beit Din a letter simply stating that they were born Jewish. But for those who have strong evidences of the mother's female Jewish lineage (going back at least 4 generations) - and who have studied to learn the basics of Jewish Law - they can be given a "return certificate" (giyur l'chumra) like what was done for the Ethiopians and others not of the Bnei Anousim."
 * I assume the same thing would happen for Turkish crypto-Jews.
 * This source says that for the "Portuguese law of return, the decision to recognize Jewishness or not is also outsourced to local Jewish communities: "But for cases like the thousands of Latin Americans claiming crypto-Jewish heritage, the Donme of Turkey (whose ancestors converted to Islam following the false messiah Shabbetai Tzvi) or opportunists like Abramovich, someone must be nominated as the arbiter. Placing local Jewish communities in this position saves the Portuguese government from the uncomfortable role of determining who is or is not Sephardic enough. It also has the practical benefit of outsourcing the Jewish genealogy work required." I know Turkish dönme who got Portuguese citizenship thanks to this law. A455bcd9 (talk) 19:20, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
 * This source explores the issue: "Zorlu had always claimed that the Turkish Chief Rabbinate and Israeli religious authorities who insisted on not accepting the Donmes as Jews were mistaken. In his opinion, Donmes were Jews and if a Donme wanted to return to Judaism this should be done automatically without him having to go through the same lengthy conversion procedure as a nonJew. After feeling that he was not being taken seriously, Zorlu decided to obtain a legal decision confirming his status as a Jew and applied to the Istanbul 9t h Court of First Instance in July 2000 for this purpose. He requested that the designation "Islam" as his religious affiliation in his identity card to be changed to "Jew", and quickly won his case. The case of Zorlu's "return to Judaism" was closely followed from the outset by both the Islamist1 and mainstream press2 and given broad media coverage. Soon after he won his case the Beth Din, or Religious Court of Turkey's Chief Rabbinate, decided to accept his conversion to Judaism."
 * Also, someone posted the question recently on Reddit and it seems that Anusim (such as the Mashhadi Jews) are eligible for the Israeli Law of Return. However, the Dönme are a bit different as they first followed a false (according to Jewish law) messiah and were then forced to convert to Islam... A455bcd9 (talk) 19:30, 30 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Another precedent is the Falash Mura... AnonMoos (talk) 23:18, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks @AnonMoos! A455bcd9 (talk) 07:32, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Arthur d'Echerac
I recently imported the French version of the article Arthur d'Echerac (also known as G. Dargenty), but I'm trying to improve the sourcing. Does anyone have any English language (or otherwise) biographical entries that I can access online for this article? Viriditas (talk) 23:18, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
 * This looks relevant, but i'm too lazy to OCR and autotranslate. (Gallica has an OCR'd version)fiveby(zero) 14:27, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Oops, there is a bare URL ref for that in the article, but don't see this. fiveby(zero) 14:55, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I will give it a try and see how it goes. Viriditas (talk) 20:49, 31 October 2022 (UTC)