Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 October 9

= October 9 =

Civil / Roman law - idea of good father
I have an aspect of a big question: How to act normally as an adult? The person should be respectful, careful so have to pay preventive attention of the surroundings. As I know Romans wrote about an independent individual responsibilities as how "Good father" acts. My guess there should be described roots, mentions and details of "all the diligence of a good father of a family to prevent damage." I found this YT video [Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCcXzcmjZX4 LAW ON OBLIGATION - DETERIMINATE THING & DILIGENCE OF A GOOD FATHER] but it has no sources. I cant find wikipedia article what mention this topic. Thanks. Rodrigo (talk) 08:26, 9 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Perhaps start with our article Pater familias. Alansplodge (talk) 10:57, 9 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the hint, I found my track Pater familias >> Bonus pater familias >> Reasonable person. --Rodrigo (talk) 11:24, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Culture series
Hacker News told me I had to read the Culture series or else, so I got a copy of Consider Phlebas and dived in, and I was not prepared for this. I've never read anything by Ian M. Banks before so this style of science fiction is very different than what I'm used to. I'm more of a Remembrance of Earth's Past kind of person so this is hard pill for me to swallow with all the killing and cannibalism. Is it worth it for me to stick it out and continue with the series, or should I just give up and call it a day? I love hard science fiction, but this, I don't know if I can read about people eating other people. Viriditas (talk) 08:58, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * If you don't like it, why bother reading it? <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 12:37, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It's a good question. In my experience, psychological resistance to new ideas and things plays a significant role in our lives.  It is expected that there will be a certain adjustment period when we are exposed to something new and different.  For me, I place the limit on long works of fiction at about 80 pages.  If I can get past that, then I feel I have a more informed opinion about throwing the book against the wall.  I'm currently at page 192, and I like it, but I'm not a fan of gratuitous violence and torture porn.  I think the book was falsely sold to me as hard science fiction by its supporters, and fiveby has basically confirmed this below. Note to self:  do not take advice from Hacker News. Viriditas (talk) 21:15, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * So the "had to read" was a sales pitch, not a command, right? <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 22:55, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * No sales pitch, but in geek and nerd subcultures, you're expected to familiarize yourself with the fictional urtext behind many technological ideas, such as artificial intelligence, as only one example. Viriditas (talk) 23:07, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Viriditas -- I got all the way through "Consider Phlebas" without undue difficulty, but it didn't make me want to read any more Ian M. Banks novels, and so far I haven't. (Maybe that was partly the result of me giving Neal Stephenson a second chance and reading a second book by him, which didn't work out too well.)  I can understand a "must read" imperative -- for a long time I felt that I should read "Stranger in a Strange Land" since there were so many references to it in the geeky subculture of the 1980s and 1990s, but I was kind of turned off by Heinlein by then, and I never read it.  I want to have read it more than I want to actually read it... AnonMoos (talk) 06:30, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Viriditas (talk) 21:15, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Culture may have elements and episodes of hard science fiction, but it is not overall. If Cosider Phlebas is already too much with nothing redeeming, then i am afraid you might find little payoff in the series. Some might be able to suggest books or short stories you might like that i no longer recall. Maybe you could earn the badge Hacker News is awarding by finishing the first and slogging through the space opera Excession, but then you will have the satirically sadistic Affront and a mobile museum of genocide. fiveby(zero) 16:38, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The 'easiest' Banks SF book I have read - I don't recall much violence or any cannibalism - is Feersum Endjinn (but don't read the article before the book, it's more fun working it out as you go along). I haven't read many. -- Verbarson talkedits 12:21, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Chapter 6, "The Eaters", approximately 43 pages of cannibalism. Not sure what this has to do with "easy" or "hard", but it may be easy for you to read forty pages of torture porn, but it’s not for me, particularly when I’m eating my lunch. It’s also not something I like to spend my free time reading about. Viriditas (talk) 00:05, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, that had dropped straight out of my memory. Sorry to have misled you all. -- Verbarson talkedits 20:59, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
 * No worries. I wish I did not remember it, so you're the lucky one! Viriditas (talk) 21:33, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
 * You might try reading one (or more) of his non-SF books, which were published as by Iain Banks rather that Iain M. Banks. My favourite is Espedair Street (1987). If you didn't like Consider Phlebus, you probably wouldn't like his first-published novel The Wasp Factory, which to my mind has resonances with Nick Cave's And the Ass Saw the Angel (1989), if you're familiar with that. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.195.172.49 (talk) 17:16, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 21:01, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I would describe myself as a big fan of Banks's SF books. There is a certain streak of cruelty that seems to run through much of his work, Culture and otherwise. I'm afraid I don't remember the chapter you cite, having read it some 20 years ago. Once you've been put off an author it's really quite difficult to be persuaded otherwise. A reviewer of Look to Windward praised the "sophistication of Banks' writing and said 'he asks readers to hold in mind a great many pieces of a vast puzzle while waiting for a pattern to emerge.'." This is certainly true of Excession, for which you should make careful notes from the very beginning about the messages sent by any given spaceship/AI is messaging, to work out who is in league with whom. I re-read The Player of Games and Use of Weapons at least twice, finding them more memorable and perhaps satisfying than the others. If you don't enjoy his work, there are hundreds more other SF writers, and no way should you feel downcast or an outcast for not enjoying any particular author's work. MinorProphet (talk) 19:14, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Excellent comment. It's exactly this "streak of cruelty" that you describe that really bothered me in chapter six. I'm almost finished with Consider Phlebas (just about 100 pages to go), and I'm fascinated by his concept of sentient drones and AI and his descriptions of the Culture technology.  That's what has maintained my interest. This is the only book of his I've read so far, and the kinetic, visual narrative is second to none. His ability to paint a picture of what is happening in the mind of the reader is quite a skill, and Banks certainly has a gift that few other writers possess. With that said, I'm seriously considering the second book in the series, but the cruelty is something I've rarely run into before with other writers so it's new to me and a bit of a speed bump. Viriditas (talk) 19:20, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
 * If you like sentient drones (and hyperspaceships) then read on, Banks does lots of that sort of thing. I hope you have already read everything by William Gibson: if not, read Neuromancer - "light blue touch paper and stand well back". MinorProphet (talk) 23:43, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeppers. I'm caught up on that front.  Not sure why I never heard of Banks until now.  Probably because I didn't go deep into the genre and only skimmed the surface. Viriditas (talk) 23:57, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
 * And of course, St. Philip K. Dick (I began with the 5 volumes of collected short stories, learning how to read all over again), but it helps to have done huge quantities of Class A's to even begin to understand... I realise that I'm straying from your OP, but A Scanner Darkly is the only film adaptation of Dick's work that even begins to scratch the surface. PS I tend to give up by p. 50 of any book, and consider your 80 pages quite generous... MinorProphet (talk) 02:35, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I own the majority of the PKD collection. I would love to donate it to my local library (they don’t carry any of them) but they won’t take it for some reason.  It’s in perfect condition. Viriditas (talk) 03:38, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

So, back on topic: "Is it worth it for me to stick it out and continue with the series, or should I just give up and call it a day?" If you feel persuaded in favour of either option, a resolved might be in order here. MinorProphet (talk) 04:27, 16 October 2022 (UTC)


 * ✅ MinorProphet (talk) 06:32, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Here's hoping she has her toy back
Did Mahtob Mahmoody ever get her Toby Bunny back?2603:7000:8100:F444:412:4DDE:E611:E730 (talk) 10:36, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Why don't you write to her and ask? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:08, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Noted Painter
Who is the third painter that John Constable mentioned here after Ruysdael/Ruisdael? (found on wiki quote)

"On the death of these great men Rembrandt, Ruysdael and Cum Landscape rapidly declined; and during almost the whole of the succeeding century, little was produced.. .From this degraded and fallen state it is delightful to say that landscape painting revived in our own country [England], in all its purity, simplicity, and grandeur, in the works of Wilson, Gainsborough, Cozens, and Girtin" 99.123.152.104 (talk) 14:11, 9 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Possibly Aelbert Cuyp with an OCR misreading. 89.243.8.229 (talk) 14:43, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * That was my guess, too. Deor (talk) 14:47, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * And in the Internet Archive's text of Memoirs of the Life of John Constable one can see (search for "degraded") that the paragraph begins ""On the death of these great men Landscape rapidly declined ...", so the names appear to be an attempt at an editorial explanation of whom Constable is referring to. The three "great men" that he referred to in the preceding paragraph are indeed Rembrandt, Ruysdael, and Cuyp. (I've gone ahead and emended the quotation in Wikiquote.) Deor (talk) 14:58, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * This is what Thornes actually wrote:
 * In Constable’s lecture at Hampstead in 1833, having discussed the important role of Rembrandt in landscape painting and then mentioning the significance of Ruisdael and Cuyp, he identifies a decline in landscape painting:
 * “On the death of these great men Landscape rapidly declined; and during almost the whole of the succeeding century, little was produced ... From this degraded and fallen state it is delightful to say that landscape painting revived in our own country, in all its purity, simplicity, and grandeur, in the works of Wilson, Gainsborough, Cozens, and Girtin.”
 * --Lambiam 17:48, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for all your helps! Quite clearly, I was reluctant to look up Cum + painting/er, so I appreciate the daring showed (not sarcasm!)
 * Thanks again 2600:1700:7830:DE40:A9AB:1C23:99FE:97A2 (talk) 00:59, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Harrison, Arkansas
The city of Harrison, Arkansas, is popularly referred to as one of the most racist cities in the United States. It has an almost, all white population of about 13,000 people, with a history of white supremacism, and an active Christian Identify movement which advocates on behalf of racism, antisemitism, and extreme homophobia. My question is quite simple: what can be done, if anything, to reform this town? Viriditas (talk) 21:54, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * What laws have they violated? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:53, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * You can read about all the riots and murders from a century ago, and the current desire of the religious residents to impose theocratic governance in place of democracy (basically anyone who violates a Biblical rule should be executed according to them, which means they believe gay people should be killed), but this question isn’t about laws, it’s about the culture of hate and intolerance, which like gun violence is essentially a public health issue, as these are social contagions that can easily spread from one town to the next. Again, the question is how do you address the problem of racist and hateful towns in America? Viriditas (talk) 23:01, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I could say "Pray for them", in an ironic twist on their phony Christianity. But what specific laws have they violated recently? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:08, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * With respect, "what law have they violated" isn’t helpful when discussing racism, as racism was and is still legal (institutional) despite many attempts to enact reforms. Viriditas (talk) 23:43, 9 October 2022 (UTC).
 * There are good people in Harrison who are working very hard to oppose racism in that community. Read about their work here. Cullen328 (talk) 01:09, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * How about moving there, to live life as a counter-example? If enough people did that, there could even be a democratic change of leadership. -- Verbarson talkedits 11:07, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * As Cullen suggests, the established citizens are more likely to make a positive impact. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:06, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Seems to be a breakdown in communication. I wasn't talking about what I or anyone here can do to reform the town, I was talking about what can be done in the abstract, and by extension, what can be done in other towns. Viriditas (talk) 20:59, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Why do you feel the need to impose your viewpoint on small towns? They are what they are, and unless they're in violation of the law, they have the right to be jerks. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:24, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It's really weird and unusual how you keep trying to change the subject from the most racist and hateful town in the United States to me. Racism, antisemitism, and extreme homophobia are not "views", they are forms of propaganda, disinformation, and conspiracy theories which promote hatred and discrimination and result in real harm to people and threaten the existence of secular, democratic society. They are social contagions that actively spread like a virus by people with power, such as politicians, churches, and leaders of cults.  And no, once again, your "view" that that these things are okay because they may be "legal" or skirting the laws of speech isn't acceptable to most rational people.  Institutional racism, as our article explains, "is a form of racism that is embedded in the laws and regulations of a society or an organization. It manifests as discrimination in areas such as criminal justice, employment, housing, health care, education, and political representation."  Once again, one does not have to be in violation of the law for this to be a problem.  I get the sense that this will not get through to you for the third, fourth, or fifth time. I would like to also note that your argument is contingent on "they aren't hurting anyone, so leave them alone", which is clearly false. Viriditas (talk) 23:54, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Short answer: there probably isn’t anything “we can do” to change their minds. Haters are gonna hate. Blueboar (talk) 00:04, 11 October 2022 (UTC)