Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 April 15

= April 15 =

The royalty of Margia Dean, a railway baron, and a Greek regent
According to our article Margia Dean "her grandfather owned all of the railroads in Greece, her great great grandfather had rose [sic] to become the regent of Greece" and she was "of royal Greek descent". So who were her grandfather and great-great-grandfather, and did they really have such distinction? Was she of royal descent? The references used in our article are perhaps not of the best quality. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 01:57, 15 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Gosh, what a mess. Her father, "Evangelis Skliris" appears to be unknown to Google outside of our article. Perhaps a transliteration error?
 * Railroads in Greece: History, Characteristics, and Forecasts says that the "Greek Railways Organization (OSE) was formed in 1970 and united a number of regional railroads, some dating back to 1884". This seems to cast doubt on their having been a single rail magnate in the country at any time.
 * Our List of regents of Greece starts with a couple of German princes, the only male Greek in the right timeframe is Pavlos Kountouriotis, who would have been 67 when Margia was born. Margia's paternal grandfather must have had the surname "Skliris", so that rules out the regent's son Theodoros, and one daughter married a chap called Alexis Stephanou, while the other was married to Emmanuel Lambrinoudis. Of the other two native Greek regents, Georgios Kondylis was more notable as a general and prime minister, and Damaskinos of Athens was an Orthodox archbishop, so unlikely to be anybody's grandfather if he was behaving himself.
 * I thought perhaps it might have been Margia's maternal grandfather, but Margia's original surname was "Skliris-Alvarez", and Álvarez (surname) being Spanish, this seems infinitely improbable. Oops, Alvarez was her husband not her mother. I haven't been able to track down her mother at all.
 * So the whole claim seems to be somewhat lacking in veracity. Alansplodge (talk) 12:21, 15 April 2023 (UTC)


 * I've found a Leonidas Skliris who was "the Czar of the Greeks", notorious padrone of immigrant Greek labourers on the railroads. He may be a red herring. DuncanHill (talk) 19:12, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, he has several Google results, including Leonidas Skliris called thief in fee exacted monthly from laborers. Plausibly, "boss of Greeks on the railroad" became "boss of railroads in Greece" in a sanitised family legend. Alansplodge (talk) 11:05, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The major Greek railway companies in the 1920s were SPAP, a publicly traded company, and SEK, a public sector entity. Neither was largely owned by a single individual. --Lambiam 20:04, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Family Search gives her parents as Evangelos George Skliris (1873-1927) and Dionysia Anastasia Kyriakopoulos (1887-1982). Evangelos' father is there named as George Nicholas Skliris. 194.223.53.134 (talk) 02:20, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Dating of The Parisian (Study of Ellen Andrée) by Édouard Manet
Both our article on Édouard Manet and the website of the hosting gallery Nationalmuseum, date the painting The Parisian (synonymously referred to on Wikipedia as A Parisian Lady) to 1883. But, to me, this seems like a typo, as Manet was incapacitated and on his deathbed that year and wasn't known to have painted anything at that time, although, as I have just learned, he may have made up to four paintings until March of that year. Most other sources list dates like 1874-75, nothing that Manet intended to display The Parisian at the Salon of 1876. Strangely, the painting doesn't appear in some books about Manet in 1982, but does appear in 1995, so there must be some unusual history going on here. Which I don't understand because the Nationalmuseum has had it since 1917. I wonder if this is another case of Nazi art looting (was the painting stolen and recovered?) because the confusion over the dating and its elision from some art books in the 1980s doesn't make sense to me. Meanwhile, there's still the odd date to contend with. Was The Parisian reevaluated after 1995 and found to be a later painting, or is this just a typo by the gallery? The bio on Ellen Andrée implies she did most of her modeling for Manet in the 1870s. Viriditas (talk) 21:42, 15 April 2023 (UTC)


 * During WWII Sweden was neutral and never occupied. And according to this the picture was part of an exhibition in 1948. The same source dates it to 1875 based on an annotation by the son of Monet's "concubine" (and possibly Manet's son) on a photo of the painting. Too bad the museum gives no information on what they base their date on. Maybe this book has more information, but I have no access. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 14:58, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Apologies if I offended anyone. I didn’t mean to imply Sweden was occupied, but my understanding is that some paintings were lost or stolen when they were away from their hosting institutions during the war.  I was wondering if the painting was traveling during that time. As you have shown, it was not.  Thanks. I will try to find a copy of that book. Viriditas (talk) 20:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I wasn't offended at all. I just mentioned it to point out that Nazi looting while possible was not that likely in this case. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 20:14, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * This source states that there were two different women, one named Ellen Andrée, the other Ellen André, and that it is more likely that the latter was the model for the painting La parisienne in the Nationalmuseum. The dating 1875 is possibly based on the supposition that Ellen Andrée was the model. The title La parisienne has also been used in reference to other Manet paintings --Lambiam 16:20, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * How confusing. I will follow up on this.  Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 20:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * That source refers to Ellen André as the daughter of Edmond André. Ellen Andrée was born as Hélène André and according to the French article on Ellen Andrée a note by Manet names Edmond André as her father. This suggests that there was some confusion created by the different spellings and that there was only one woman after all. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 20:36, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Which makes a crazy kind of sense as an explanation for the problem. So, it looks like the dating for the Nationalmuseum was wrong all along.  The Fr wiki lists 1874 as the date, which aligns nicely with all the other sources on the subject.  Still, this is such a strange mistake for a gallery to make that I'm wondering if we are only seeing a small part of the overall problem. Viriditas (talk) 21:09, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Curiouser and curiouser: art historian Michael Pantazzi writes in 1989: "Ellen Andrée was not the daughter of the painter Edmond André, Manet’s friend, as claimed by Rouart and Wildenstein". So, back to square one. Pantazzi dates the painting in question to 1875-76. Viriditas (talk) 21:42, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * At this point, I'm convinced it's a typo by the Nationalmuseum.  I reached this conclusion by noting that their own in-house bulletin confirms the date of the painting is 1876 ("Éduard Manet renders the background in Nationalmuseum’s A Parisian Lady from 1876").  That article was published in volume 23 of the Nationalmuseum Art Bulletin in 2016.  Now, the question becomes how to get them to fix it. Viriditas (talk) 22:41, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Note, I sent them an email with all the relevant links. Viriditas (talk) 22:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * That really suggests that they don't disagree with everyone else about the date, but that someone accidentally enter the year of his death as the date for painting. That leaves the mystery of why some books don't mention it and of the one or two Ellens. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 22:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I found a source that lends additional insight into that mystery, but I neglected to mention it. It's Manet, 1832–1883 (1983), p. 432.  Françoise Cachin writes: "Moreau-Nelaton's dating [of The Blonde with Bare Breasts, which he dates to 1875 instead of 1878] is based on association with La parisienne (RW I 236), which he believes to have been posed by the same model [Either Amélie-Jeanne or Marguerite, it's unclear]. But according to Mme Manet, Ellen Andrée posed for La parisienne. In any case, the style places the work [The Blonde with Bare Breasts] between 1875 and 1879. The hat also seems to be in the fashion of the late 1870s or early 1880s." Viriditas (talk) 23:16, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The book Dictionary of Artists' Models has a biography of Ellen Andrée on pp.42ff --Lambiam 07:03, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Great find, as usual. I will make sure to use that source next week when I start fixing these issues.  Thanks, again. Viriditas (talk) 08:09, 17 April 2023 (UTC)