Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 April 26

= April 26 =

What happens to refugees who reach Europe by boat
In USA, the South Americans and Mexicans can cross border and settle with their family as almost all have relatives in USA. Legal migrants can get a home for rent and bring wives from his origin country.

I am asking about the Africans, Afghans, Moroccans who reach Spain, France, Italy, UK as asylum seeker or illegal migrant.First every adult human needs a job, then they will need a place to stay. After that they need to get married, have kids and then purchase a property. Asylum seekers stay in temporary tents, plastic homes. I think government or some organisations give them food to eat. If the illegal migrant and asylum seeker get citizenship, then are they allowed to bring their wife, children from their native country? All will not be able to find local European woman as wives. If they came as an unmarried teen, then after they get asylum, can they marry their country girl and bring them to Europe? And if they get citizenship ot their asylum application is approved, then he has to start a family. Most videos I have seen is that those who cross to Europe are men. Grace Ilunga (talk) 04:38, 26 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The extremely problematic Dublin Regulation causes a lot of the problems, since it decrees that such people must receive sanctuary from the first EU state they arrive at, or not at all. The Dublin Regulation is pretty much a dead letter in Greece, which has never really seen itself as a country suitable for immigration, and which is suffering from an EU-caused economic depression (not to mention that there are historic and cultural reasons why Greece is quite unlikely to welcome a drastic increase in Muslim inhabitants).   The situation in Italy is not as catastrophic as in Greece, but immigration fatigue is affecting Italian politics. AnonMoos (talk) 11:22, 26 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Migrants can apply for asylum in the UK from their home countries, but many more asylum-seekers arrive here from EU countries, often trafficked in small boats across the English Channel. This was a major issue in the Brexit referendum ("take control of our borders"), but the problem has worsened since. Illegally arriving migrants are sometimes accomodated in hotels, or in detention centres sometimes likened to prisons . Those who fail to achieve asylum status are deported. Those who are granted asylem are given temporary housing and other benefits to enable them to settle; see Asylum and refugee resettlement in the UK. Government attempts to curb this growing problem include the bizarre Rwanda asylum plan which is currently the subject of litigation. Alansplodge (talk) 12:36, 26 April 2023 (UTC)


 * It's complicated.
 * Handling of asylum seekers/illegal immigrants isn't handled centrally in the EU, but once they're in, they can travel freely all over the area, as the borders are open. There are two kinds of illegal immigrants: those who seek safety and those who seek money. Those who seek safety are reluctantly welcomed. There are quite some women and families among those. Those who seek money, who are mostly men, are usually rejected, but that doesn't necessarily mean they get send back. Their home country has to accept them, but those countries can make more money by having some of their people in Europe and send money to their families.
 * Concerning families, people are under no obligation to start one and the government won't help anyone start a family (except if the reason for not starting one is purely medical; then the government may pay for medical aid). Middle Eastern or North African men cannot all find European women to marry, but they don't want that anyway. Those men find European women too liberal/progressive, the European women find the Middle Eastern men too conservative. The cultural difference is pretty big. Fetching a wife from their home country is viewed with suspicion, as it allows for fraud. Once a man gets a permanent residency permit in Europe, he could go to his home country and marry somebody (often some cousin), then take her with him to Europe. A few years later, she gets a permanent residency permit on her own, they can divorce and fetch a new spouse from their country of origin. I think the current plan is only to allow family reunions if the couple was married a couple of years before one requested asylum. PiusImpavidus (talk) 14:45, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Note that right-wing politicians, and increasingly also centrist politicians, portray migrants seeking to avoid starvation as "fortune hunters". --Lambiam 16:13, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Lambiam -- the more usual term is "Economic migrant" (not "fortune hunter")... AnonMoos (talk) 23:54, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * That is the politically correct term, but right-wing politicians are not known for their fastidious use of politically correct terminology. --Lambiam 11:29, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I find that term "politically correct" is better replaced by "non-asshole" and is usually accurate. So, the non-asshole term is "economic migrant".  -- Jayron 32 12:48, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * As with most things, there is no black or white. The largest national group arriving illegally in the UK are from Albania, often young males . Albania is neither a war-zone nor suffering from famine nor any natural disaster, but is not exactly prosperous. So "economic migrant" fits the bill there, whichever side of the political spectrum you inhabit. Alansplodge (talk) 21:54, 28 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Some points from a Spanish point of view. There are the non-accompanied minors (MENAs in Spanish) from Northern Africa. As minors, they cannot be forcefully returned to Morocco, so they become wards of a autonomous community of Spain until they become 18. Since some of them lack/destroy documentation, they may not be actual minors. Forensic techniques like X-rays of the hands are used to guess their age. Since they are old enough to travel alone and too old to learn Spanish languages as bilinguals, their integration can be limited. Once they become 18, I think they can stay in Spain, but being under-schooled and lacking most kinds of capital, they have it raw. Anti-immigration sides link them to petty crime.
 * Spain has an informal economy, probably as big as Italy. Thus, an irregular immigrant could be exploited for work illegally in a variety of sectors. It is a crime for employers, but only if they are caught. There is also the possibility of crime, begging or other lumpenproletariat.
 * Asylum seekers may be granted temporary or permanent asylum rather than citizenship. Meanwhile there are religious and secular charities that can help them (Comisión Española de Ayuda al Refugiado comes to mind). The different levels of the state may help these charities. If not, there are still the lumpen options already stated.
 * The majority of illegal/irregular immigrants are people from Ibero-America who overstay their visas. Those who risk death across the sea or crashing a land border are a minority but get more news coverage and, being African or Asian are more visible.
 * For those who crash the Melilla or Ceuta fences or cross the Strait of Gibraltar or the Atlantic, if they are not instantly sent back to Morocco (devolución en caliente), they are held in overcrowded Centro de Internamiento de Extranjeros for a while. They can apply for asylum. After some weeks/months, they may be notified of expulsion to their country of origin (but only if it is known). Since the return requires the collaboration of the destination government, they may be left to their own devices in Spain. Then they can resort to lumpen survival, contact family or friends in Europe or move through the Schengen area for better opportunities.
 * There have been some mass regularization processes for those who can prove residing in Spain for years, but that is a gamble depending on the current government being too overwhelmed with irregular residents.
 * The Spanish government has been criticized for being stingy with asylum. People who should get asylum under international law end up as illegal residents or legal residents subject to the economic needs of the country.
 * There is also the way of naturalization, but I don't know if it is open for illegal residents. Maybe by marriage.
 * Bringing family in is legal only for legal residents fulfilling some requirements.
 * There is also the way of the Spanish government granting citizenship by decree but is limited to high-profile cases like Mario Vargas Llosa or the recent Nicaraguan dissidents who lost their Nicaraguan nationality.
 * Note I provide no references. I may be wrong in several aspects.
 * --Error (talk) 17:59, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Illegal employment is a crime for the employer even if not caught, of course. Insufficient enforcement and low punishments/penalties, however, often still make it an economically viable proposition. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:48, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Knapptryckarna
Hello, i am trying to write an article about a minor swedish political party called Knapptryckarna, but i can´t find any good sources. The only one i´ve found is their official website, which would probably include biased information. Does anyone know where to find good sources? I´ve written all i could find on User:KaptenPotatismos/sandbox

~ KaptenPotatismos (talk) 08:07, 26 April 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't wish to be cruel, but a "minor swedish political party" for which you can't find any good sources is probably going to fail any WP:NOTABLE test. You may well be wasting your time over Basquiat-esquethis.  According to your stub they only polled "5493 votes, which was 0.08% of the votes".  Do remember that you can use foreign language sources (including Swedish) if no English language sources are available. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 08:26, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Europeiska arbetarpartiet, which received 15 votes in 2022, has an article on the Swedish Wikipedia, though. --Lambiam 16:05, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * But Knapptryckarna hasn't made it into the Swedish WP, which perhaps says something about its notability, or lack thereof. Alansplodge (talk) 17:21, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * It suggests to me that this party isn't notable for being obscure. I second the suggestion that you try Swedish sources, but if you can't find AT LEAST 3-4 sources in Swedish then how notable *is* it really, hmm? Elinruby (talk) 00:32, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd ask what "Basquiat-esquethis" is, but suspect it's non-notable. —Tamfang (talk) 13:47, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
 * There is a 2011 book by (former) Swedish politician Anne-Marie Pålsson called "Knapptryckarkompaniet" ("button presser company") that criticises the Swedish political system. So I'm guessing that the Knapptryckarna is a relatively new protest and/or joke party. There's a good chance that it has little to no notability. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 03:14, 27 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Curiously, there's a British Scout campfire song called "Hello, my name's Joe and I work in a button-pushing factory". I never realised that it was political satire :-) Alansplodge (talk) 16:55, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

His Holiness Francis Church
We have an article about St. Francis Church, Abu Dhabi, part of the Abrahamic Family House. Looking at this video: https://wam.ae/en/details/1395303130109 at the 1:03 mark, it seems that the official name should actually be His Holiness Francis Church, which is somehow also mentioned in our article. My questions are: 1) what is the real official name of this Church? 2) is it really named after Francis of Assisi or to Pope Francis, as the terms His Holinessseem to suggest? Thank you! 82.52.31.81 (talk) 16:19, 26 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Honestly if a Google search didn't tell you, the best way to find out is to ask the church directly. It's not like we're seeking some ancient obscure knowledge here - the people who made the decision are an email away. --Golbez (talk) 16:40, 26 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The National Catholic Register goes with "St. Francis of Assisi Church", but their webpage includes a link to the church's own Twitter page, which says "His Holiness Francis Church". Make of that what you will. Perhaps the best place for this discussion is the Wikipedia article's talk page. Alansplodge (talk) 17:29, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The Apostolic Vicariate of Southern Arabia also says "St. Francis Church".  Alansplodge (talk) 17:35, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * So does the website of the Abrahamic Family House. The Arabic name كنيسة القديس فرنسيس seen on the wall in the video also simply means St. Francis Church, that is, a church dedicated to a saint whose name is "Francis". The Hebrew name הכנסיה של הוד קדושתו פרנסיס, on the other hand, does translate as "The Church of His Holiness Francis". I think the English and Hebrew names on the wall are the result of translation errors. --Lambiam 06:47, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I suspect there is some translation issues with terms like "Saint" and "Holiness" in these cases; they are similar enough in meaning that wires may get crossed along the way. -- Jayron 32 12:13, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Many languages (Latin, Italian, French, Spanish, German, Greek, Hebrew, Japanese, Russian, ...) use the same word for saint as for holy [person]. The difference between Hebrew קדוש (kadósh) and קדושתו (kdusható) is about as pronounced as that between holy and his holiness in English. Given the similarity between Arabic and Hebrew, the most plausible chain is Arabic → English → Hebrew, in which the Hebrew translator faithfully translated the incorrect English. --Lambiam 18:05, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The article could maybe get a clarification, but for the title of the article- see WP:COMMONNAME. David10244 (talk) 05:39, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Firstly, churches are never named after living persons. And it isn't even enough to be dead; you have to have been canonized as a saint. Secondly, popes are never referred to as "His Holiness " but as "His Holiness Pope ". --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  09:53, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually, you don't have to be a saint, or even a Servant of God, Venerable, or Blessed: for example, John Keble Church, Mill Hill. Although Keble is commemorated with a Lesser Festival in the CoE, that's as far as his saintliness goes. MinorProphet (talk) 21:19, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected, to the extent that your revelation renders my post less than perfect. (* sob *) --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  03:34, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Although the example quoted is Anglican; I'm not sure that they've been playing from the same rule-book as the Catholics for a few centuries. Alansplodge (talk) 09:45, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm damn sure they haven't. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:56, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed (see English understatement) :-)  Alansplodge (talk) 18:58, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I would not be surprised to find that the English translation of the name of an entity in Arabia does not perfectly follow English conventions. —Tamfang (talk) 13:56, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Re. Jean Michel Basquiat
Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:32, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Some years ago there was a thread on these venerable pages dealing with eponyms / their adjectival forms, eg Shakespearean or Kafkaesque. If memory serves me right, there was even a rule of sorts proposed.  Of course (see memory), this rule has evaporated from my mind.
 * So, what seems preferable: Basquiat-esque, Basquiat-ean, Basquiat-ine, Basquiat-ic or some other option?  I am labouring on a 3D analysis of Jean Michel Basquiat´s formal language - primarily his linear constructs achieved by oil sticks, and a few notes on my interpretative experiments may be useful...
 * All of these alternatives seem painfully clumsy to me.
 * Thank you for any advice and suggestions.


 * Perhaps the thread you recall is "-ian vs. -esque" from 2010 (if so, it's a considerable feat of memory). This quotes "CLD" (possibly the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary?) thusly:
 * -esque is 'like or in the style of someone or their work', while -ian is 'connected with or belonging to the stated place, group or type'. -ic is just 'used to form adjectives'.
 * Alansplodge (talk) 17:42, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's a reasonable set of criteria. "Newtonian", "Einsteinian", and "Abelian" are all regularly used terms for those physicists/mathematicians and the characteristics of their best-known works. Likewise "Churchillian" for that statesman's oratorical style. --174.89.12.187 (talk) 21:08, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * While not criteria, -esque suffixed to a person's name means specifically "in the style or manner of" that person. It would be grotesque to refer to Newtonian dynamics as Newtonesque dynamics. --Lambiam 06:57, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @Lambiam Who is "grot" and what is his or her style? David10244 (talk) 05:42, 30 April 2023 (UTC)


 * See also "suffixes added to proper names" in Fowler's Dictionary of Modern English Usage p. 786. Alansplodge (talk) 17:55, 26 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Like literally everything else in language, there really isn't a formal way these things happen, there's no body that decides which of the plethora of acceptable suffixes we attach to a person's name to describe something related to that person, so while something may be Orwellian or Kafkaesque, they are almost never Orwellesque or Kafkaian. Why?  No reason.  Language grows organically and somewhat arbitrarily and some word forms simply "take hold" in the popular usage for no particular reason (though that doesn't stop people from bullshitting themselves into believing some "ex-post-facto" justification often).  In essence, what you need to do is examine the corpus of works that use the term or terms you want to decide between, and decide what the prevalent term is.  That's basically what lexicographers do, so if a term has become common enough, it'll get picked up by dictionaries, in the way that Kafkaesque and Orwellian have (you'll notice the definitions are almost identical, indicating that the suffixes mean the same thing in each case).  If there isn't a dictionary that covers it, a decent proxy might be to use a Google Search (or refined Google Search perhaps using ngrams) to find various variations on the term, and see if any are in common use.  -- Jayron 32 12:10, 27 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you for locating the link to the ancient WP query and for the comments. Intuitively, I think that Basquiatesque may be the correct sematic choice.  As a word, it even sounds a bit like JMB´s painterly prosody.  Much obliged... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 12:27, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * It does roll off the tongue rather pleasantly, IMHO. -- Jayron 32 12:43, 27 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Basquiatesque, for the curious: There actually exists a grafitto by Banksy where he uses a figure in Basquiat´s style (based on Boy and Dog on a Johnny Pump).  This was produced at the time of the JMB exhibition at the Barbican, London, some 5 years ago.  To the left was added a fake Keith Haring, presumably executed by a different street artist.  The murals have been protected by perspex panels but I have no idea if they survived.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:15, 27 April 2023 (UTC)


 * A Google Books search finds a number of published works that insert a hyphen, "Basquiat-esque", perhaps for the sake of clarity. Alansplodge (talk) 16:44, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Can we vote? I like Basquiatic.  It has aquatic connotations, but then, he didn't work in watercolors,  did he? David10244 (talk) 05:46, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

How many Roman Catholic prelates are there?
Like many of you, I check the recent deaths page every day. I can't help noticing that almost every day a Roman Catholic prelate is listed among the dead. And I really mean almost every day. I think a Catholic prelate died on four out of the last five days. I always thought a prelate was a bishop, and I wouldn't have thought there were all that many bishops. Our article on prelate indicates that it's a little broader than that, but it doesn't say how many there are. Is this status conferred on many thousands of elderly clergy? Lantzy : Lantzy 18:19, 26 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Our Bishops in the Catholic Church article says:
 * As of 2020, there were approximately 5,600 living bishops total in the Latin and Eastern churches of the Catholic Church.
 * Alansplodge (talk) 18:56, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * With about 5600 of them, I wouldn't expect a death nearly every day, but I don't know the age distribution. David10244 (talk) 05:48, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * As long as the membership stays roughly consistent, there should be about 15 such bishops dying every day, give or take. -- Jayron 32 14:54, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * No. I think you implicitly assume a complete replacement every year (hence 5600/365 = 15 (or close enough for Fermi)). I would expect Bishops to stay in office more like 20 years. But that would still give us a rate of a bit under 1 death/day, and with some clumping, the above observations are reasonable. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:33, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * According to Bishops in the Catholic Church, there are about 5,600 bishops in the Catholic Church. I think in this case, "prelate" is a category while "bishop" is a more specific job title (kind of prelate), so you would refer to bishops as "prelates" just as you would refer to an MP as a "politician", it's just using a more general category to refer to the person in question.  If I were to make yet another "imperfect" analogy, prelate is the Catholic equivalent of a "commissioned officer"; priests are basically the "noncoms and privates" of the Catholic hierarchy, and prelates are the officers.  Most prelates are going to be Bishops, but it would also include Superiors, such as the Superior General of the Society of Jesus, who is not a Bishop, but is an important leader, and also includes also the leaders of "regular societies" (religious orders, etc.)  See prelate.  I would think this latter category of prelates would be an order of magnitude smaller than the number of bishops, so there are perhaps 6-7 thousand total prelates, at my best guess.  -- Jayron 32 19:08, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Today I heard that the Sixteenth Ordinary General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops starting in October would allow the vote of women and laity, but that still bishops outnumber them. I am not sure if everybody in the synod is a prelate, but it may be a starting point in your search. On the other hand, a retired cardinal is a prelate but he does not participate in conclaves and other assemblies. --Error (talk) 23:47, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I think Auxiliary bishops are prelates, too. And many dioceses have several of those. The Catholic Encyclopedia lists a number of different offices that come with the title of prelate. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 03:29, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Auxiliary bishops are bishops. --Lambiam 05:28, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, but as far as I can tell "prelate" has a connotation of being "first" in some jurisdiction. For auxiliary bishops that is only notionally the case insofar as they are Titular bishops. That's why I'm not entirely sure. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 07:00, 27 April 2023 (UTC)