Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 April 3

= April 3 =

Highest value of n in the expression "nth Battle of x"
What is the highest value of n in the expression "nth Battle of x" for a) the First World War, and b) any other war in which battles are conventionally numbered, and in both cases what are the values of x? I know that the Isonzo goes up to 12. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 11:26, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The Twelfth Battle of Isonzo may be the largest such number; doing a Wikipedia search for "thirteenth battle": turns up basically nothing.  -- Jayron 32 12:34, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * They may have decided to skip that one because 13 brings bad luck. --Lambiam 15:45, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * If they don't have to be real, Coruscant has a lot more than 12 battles. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 13:47, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Real for me please. DuncanHill (talk) 14:03, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * There's a Fourteenth Siege of Gibraltar (1779 to 1783), does that count? All fourteen sieges are listed in List of sieges of Gibraltar and Template:Sieges_of_Gibraltar and Category:Sieges of Gibraltar and each has their own article.  – b_jonas 13:20, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh that's good, thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 14:03, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Ruby Green Smith
Could someone with access to US genealogical sources please check and cite:


 * The name of the mother of Ruby Green Smith (wife of Dr. Alpheus W. Green)?
 * If the mother's surname was not Bell, why was RG Smith known as Ruby Green Bell?
 * The date of Smith' marriage to Albert William Smith (1856-1942)?
 * The years of birth of their children?
 * [adding] Who was her first husband ("Bell") and when?

Thank you. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:34, 3 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Where've you got the Bell from?Neither of the sources used in the article for the sentence "Smith was born as Ruby Green Bell on January 6, 1878, in Indiana, the daughter of Dr. Alpheus W. Green and his wife" mention Bell. DuncanHill (talk) 12:16, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * That's why I'm questioning myself; she was named as Bell in her 1904 work, and referred to as such in the 1908 paper, as well as other sources (some of which also refer to her as "Ruby Green Bell Smith"). Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:21, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Findagrave shows both parents and indicates that her maiden name was Green. Her spouses surnames were Bell and Smith. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:22, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. This also suggests that two of her children were with her first husband. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:01, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * [ec] In fact, on checking, I now see the 1908 paper says "Mrs. R. G. Bell (now Mrs. R. G. Smith)". Article duly amended. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:28, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The marriage years are given as 1897 and 1905, respectively. Further checking on that could be needed. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:03, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * She was earlier known as Mrs. Ruby G. Bell, so presumably her first husband had Bell as his surname. --Lambiam 13:19, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

While the Findagrave page inked above answers many of my questions, it's not considered citable on Wikipedia; we still need sources that are. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:33, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * At least it's something to go on. You might be able to get a trial subscription to Newspapers.com and look up some stuff. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:02, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Everyone has newspapers.com thru WP:Library.
 * Wed. of this week at Stanford
 * Marcella Jane Hayes
 * Howard Bell of California
 * Ruth Althea Smith Ludlum (Robert Phillips Ludlum)'27 Dorothy Smith Raynolds '21
 * Ruth B. 1924 Stanford D. December 1975
 * Dorothy D. June 20, 1938
 * Attempting to link to those first three items yields the message "To view this link you need to be an eligible library user. Please login to continue." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:31, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * However, there is a publicly-viewable "clipping" of the first item: ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:38, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * , you've got access to those articles don't you, or need them mailed? Couldn't find a date for Bell wedding or year of birth for the daughters from any of the obits. fiveby(zero) 16:30, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I have, thank you, and have now added all the pertinent facts to the article. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:25, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

ambassador to Luxembourg
The list of ambassadors of the United States to Luxembourg says:
 * From 1923 until World War II the ambassador to Belgium also served as ambassador to Luxembourg.… After World War II, the United States returned to appointing the ambassador to Belgium concurrently as the ambassador to Luxembourg. Since 1956 the United States Ambassador to Luxembourg has been appointed separately…

However, that page's list of ambassadors to these countries does not match the list of ambassadors of the United States to Belgium.

(There are several discrepancies; I'll list just one: On the Luxembourg list, Perle Mesta is listed as ambassador to Belgium and Luxembourg, 1949–1953, but on the Belgium list we have Robert Daniel Murphy (1949–1952) and Myron Melvin Cowen (1952–1953).)

What's going on? Is one of the articles mistaken? Which one? Or am I misunderstanding something? 2A06:C701:4EFC:E700:AD66:9E54:3D1A:85DE (talk) 18:47, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The statement "Since 1956 ..." appears to be wrong. The article on Perle Mesta only has her as "United States Ambassador to Luxembourg", no mention of Belgium. The Luxemburgish article lb:Perle Mesta explicitely states that she was the "first ambassador to Luxembourg after WW2 because until 1949 the American embassy in Brussels took care of Luxembourg as well". Unfortunately, unlike the statement in list of ambassadors of the United States to Luxembourg, this comes without a source reference. I cannot check the reference given in the latter article as it's behind a pay wall, but somebody else might. --Wrongfilter (talk) 19:16, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The history website of the State Department has Mesta only as ambassador to Luxembourg. --Lambiam 19:54, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Edgefield Obelisk, Sheffield
By Hoar Stones Road, near Low Bradfield in Yorkshire, is an obelisk known as the Edgefield Obelisk. Pictured here, and this is its Historic England list entry. The story is that it was erected in 1832 in memory of a child who had drowned in the brook. Do we know anything more about it or the child? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 21:18, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * It appears to have had a triple function


 * As a memorial
 * As a barrier to prevent a repetition
 * As a secure means of access to the spring to those wishing to draw water, provided by the construction of an access hut with a door . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C6:2417:3101:AD9A:B452:AEC:F991 (talk) 13:56, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * So far I've found nothing at all about it, apart from some tweets and Geograph entries, and reference to . I can't find anything in the British Newspaper Archive, although there are numerous references to the land thereabouts being sold at various times. No mention of a drowned child in 1832 either, tho' one not far away was drownded in the flood of 1864. I've looked at old OS maps too, and although they shew a building there, there's nothing to say "monument" or "obelisk" or "pump house" or any indication of a spring or a brook. DuncanHill (talk) 14:09, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * No knowledge, but you might be interested in Coal-tax posts, where an urban legend to that effect circulated but wasn't true. Blythwood (talk) 21:51, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Bradfield Dale cites also. fiveby(zero) 01:01, 9 April 2023 (UTC)