Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 August 27

= August 27 =

What's the root of the "Believe"/"#Believe"'s association with the town of Wigan?
https://wiganathletic.com/news/2023/april/06/proud-to-believe-2023-24-wigan-athletic-season-tickets-launched-on-tuesday-11-april/ https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-32931942 https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/wigan-pride-2023-parade-times-27473623https://www.leighjournal.co.uk/news/23533418.keely-hodgkinson-honoured-believe-star-leigh-town-hall/ -Bogger (talk) 08:15, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Believe Square,
 * Believe talent fund (https://www.wigan.gov.uk/BeWell/Support-for-athletes/Believe-Talent-Fund.aspx),
 * "Believe I'm only human" (https://www.wigan.gov.uk/Council/Believe/index.aspx)
 * Believe Bus (https://www.wigantoday.net/sport/football/wigan-athletic-the-12th-man-lets-keep-the-pedal-to-the-floor-and-see-how-far-a-fully-gassed-believe-bus-can-take-us-4270010)
 * According to one of the links "Believe Square is a walk of fame established by Wigan Council to honour the achievements of Leigh's citizens."  I've also solved the puzzle of "Wigan Pier" which perplexed me up to now. 2A00:23C3:FB81:A501:BCBF:4D79:2265:6609 (talk) 12:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * but why's it called Believe Square..? -Bogger (talk) 17:16, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 'Believe in Wigan' was a thing during the 2012-13 FA Cup, which Wigan won. I don't know if that's where it originated, but it's probably had an oversized influence since then. -- zzuuzz (talk) 18:04, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, according to this 2014 video, Believe Square is all about the FA Cup. -- zzuuzz (talk) 18:35, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know what "the puzzle of 'Wigan Pier'" is, but there is an article on it. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:58, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It's an old local joke, made famous by George Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pier (1937) though the fame is evidently wearing off by now. Johnbod (talk) 22:06, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I should have made it clear, I don't know what "the puzzle ..." is. As for Wigan Pier, it's a lot older that Orwell's book.  Both George Formbys used it in their material and a number of sources for the original local joke have been posited. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:29, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I assume the "puzzle" would be how a functionally landlocked town had a "pier". They don't even have a beach. As for "Believe" it's just a marketing slogan. Koncorde (talk) 15:08, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * So? I have a pool table, but I don't even have a pool. 136.54.106.120 (talk) 19:57, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Erwin Rommel
Had Rommel personally met Stauffenberg during the African campaign or in other circumstances? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.202.59 (talk) 14:10, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * There can be found a narrative according which such a meeting would have happened in Tunisia in 1943. Unless something more precise comes to be unveiled, it's an extrapolation after the tactical meeting of February 13, 1943 between the 5th armoured panzer commander Heinz Ziegler, general von Arnim, general Erwin Rommel, brigadier general Hans Seidemann, and the commanders of the 10th and 21th div panzer, brigade general von Broich and colonel Hans-Georg Hildebrandt, as von Stauffenberg was by then Oberstleutnant i.G. (lieutenant-colonel of the general staff), 10th panzer division. --Askedonty (talk) 18:25, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * According to de:Erwin Rommel they met February 19, 1943 near Sbeitla. Unfortunately the source cited there is not online and also there is no page given. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 17:01, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I can't see a page number, but the passage is:
 * Stauffenberg hatte Rommel am frühen Abend des ersten Tages der Schlacht von Kasserine auf dem Divisionsgefechtsstand bei Sbeitla kennengelernt. Der Generalfeldmarschall — Hitler hatte ihm diese Ehre noch am Tag der Eroberung von Tobruk zukommen lassen — und sein Generalstabschef Bayerlein besprachen mit dem Kommandeur, Generalmajor von Broich, und dem Ia Stauffenberg die bevorstehenden Operationen. Der Erfolg hänge einzig und allein von der Schnelligkeit ab, erklärte Rommel; deshalb müsse grundsätzlich von vorn geführt werden, nur so ließen sich die notwendigen Anpassungen schnell ausführen. Die Vorgaben überzeugten Broich und Stauffenberg nicht weniger als Rommels kühnes Ziel, mit einem Angriff auf den Verkehrsknotenpunkt Tebessa »die ganze englische Front in Tunis zum Einsturz« zu bringen."
 * ("Stauffenberg had met Rommel early in the evening of the first day of the battle of Kasserine at the divisional headquarters near Sbeitla. The Field Marshal – Hitler had given him this honor on the day of the conquest of Tobruk – and Bayerlein, his chief of staff, discussed the forthcoming operations with the commander, Major General von Broich, and the First General Staff Officer Stauffenberg. Success depended solely on speed, Rommel explained; that is why management must always be carried out from the front, as this is the only way to make the necessary adjustments quickly. Broich and Stauffenberg were no less convinced by the specifications than by Rommel's bold goal of "collapsing the entire English front in Tunis" by attacking the Tebessa transport hub.")
 * This is sourced to "DRZW, 8, 1106. Vgl. auch Lieb, Krieg in Nordafrika." (DRZW = Das Deutche Reich unde der Zweite Weltkrieg.) --Lambiam 20:03, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Thomas Rolfe
Until his death, Pocahontas' son was a loyal servant of the crown or a supporter of the revolution? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.202.59 (talk) 14:13, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * One can say that Thomas Rolfe (1615–1680) died well before the American Revolution; however, the Timeline of the American Revolution begins with the Cambridge Agreement (August 29, 1629).  He didn't seem to be politically motivated either way; there seems to be no evidence suggesting that he was involved in any revolutionary activities or that he was a loyal to the Crown.  He lived as an Englishman and was mainly concerned with managing his land and with relations between colonists and natives. His political views may have been influenced by his English father, John Rolfe, who returned to Virginia, remarried and served a prominent role in the economic and political life of the colony until his death in 1622 serving as secretary and recorder general of Virginia (1614-1619) and as a member of the governor's Council (1614-1622).  But, even that doesn't establish a clear distinction between either John's or Thomas' loyalty to the Crown or to a (future) revolution of independence. -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 16:11, 27 August 2023 (UTC) (with a little help from my friend,  Perplexity AI copilot)
 * I meant the English Revolution who overtrow the Stuart.
 * The Glorious Revolution started in 1688, well after Rolfe's death. Furthermore, it only really started bubbling after Catholic James II ascended the throne in 1685. --ColinFine (talk) 20:46, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the OP is thinking of the English Civil War, which was fundamentally a revolution and did, for a time, remove the Stuarts from England. Alansplodge (talk) 21:25, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed, the one who killed Charles I. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.98.108 (talk) 21:26, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that anybody knows if he supported any side in that conflict. You may be interested in The English Civil War and the American Connection (page 13/45 of the pdf) but that mainly concerns the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Alansplodge (talk) 11:42, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Jacques Clément, Jean Châtel, and François Ravaillac
For their birth dates (in 1567, 1575, and 1578), are there also the months and days? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.202.59 (talk) 14:25, 27 August 2023 (UTC)


 * As with many people born before the eighteenth century, their exact birthdates are unknown. Shantavira|feed me 08:31, 28 August 2023 (UTC)