Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 August 29

= August 29 =

dog parades
When the Coronation of Charles III and Camilla was bound to get underway, a parade of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels was held in a park. On the day of the Coronation of Elizabeth II, was there a parade of Pembroke Welsh Corgis held? Anyone know? 2603:7000:8641:810E:F028:5DAC:F0C4:F63B (talk) 02:38, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * There was a Corgi parade in October last year to mark the late Queen's passing, but I couldn't find one in 1953. Alansplodge (talk) 12:04, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Soviet peoples response to German invasion
What were the Soviet public's attitudes towards German invasion, especially during the early months of the war? I'm particularly interested in the reaction of the people in Leningrad and how their attitudes changed as the war encroached. Not-so-heroic-polonaise (talk) 06:23, 29 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Some peasants would have welcomed the Germans if they had abolished the hated collective agriculture institutions (kolkhozes etc.), but they didn't -- the Nazis were not too concerned with gaining a favorable opinion from Slavic untermenschen. As for Leningrad, there's a classic book in English, "900 Days" by Harrison Salisbury.  The siege might not have been so severe if Stalin hadn't made bitter enemies of the Finns with his 1939 land-grab (a true pyrrhic victory)... AnonMoos (talk) 09:58, 29 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Whatever Stalin's failures at the start of the war, he was successful in turning the invasion into a holy war for Mother Russia, even reopening many of the churches that he had shut down in the preceding decades. It was less successful in Ukraine where the memory of the Holodomor was still fresh. Alansplodge (talk) 12:13, 29 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I've been reading a lot about this period recently, and came across a passsage in a book about your query: but unfortunately I can't remember exactly where - you can't make a note of everything. The gist of it was that when the German armies first rolled into the Soviet Union in Operation Barbarossa they tended to be relatively well-disposed towards the civilian populace, e.g. re-opening previously closed churches and generally ecouraging normal behaviour under the circumstances. Some commanding generals were more benign than others, depending on whether they were whole-hearted Nazis or merely old-style military men more interested in winning a war than being beastly to the Slavs. I seem to remember that it was only when the occupying forces moved in behind the fighting army that the more oppressive behaviour occurred: see Order Police battalions of the Ordnungspolizei, Einsatzgruppen, and various Waffen-SS units. The Commissar Order to deal mercilessly with Soviet Commissars was signed in June 1941 before the German invasion had even begun. See also Collaboration in the German-occupied Soviet Union Byelorussian collaboration with Nazi Germany - Belarus wanted its own independence from the USSR, as did Ukraine - see Ukrainian collaborationism with the Axis powers. MinorProphet (talk) 16:52, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Side note: I have researched the use of the term "collaborationist" and was unable to find it used in an academic source discussing anything but Vichy France. If anybody knows of one I'd be intrested in hearing about it. In any event if the Vichy historians are right about this or have established this as convention, the Ukrainian article title above would be wrong. I do not have strong feelings on the matter and merely report. Elinruby (talk) 13:58, 30 August 2023 (UTC) PS- if the scope isn't limited to France, it means a fervent ideological collaborator, as opposed to a mayor trying to keep the electrical plant running, or your military men who just want to win the war. I suspect that many Ukranians were fervently anti-Soviet so that would be correct; I just think we should try for consistency one way or another Elinruby (talk) 14:11, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Anecdotal fwiw: someone Polish told me once that Napoleon Bonaparte is ok, maybe not a hero but at least favorably seen in Polish hisory. Because if you must have a caudillo you'd rather have one that has some interesting ideas about the fundamental rights of man and the citizen. I suspect World War II may have been like that also; the Holmodor as you say, and the ideology was of course much more murderous Elinruby (talk) 14:22, 30 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Aha! I randomly came across the passage I remembered: "Barbarossa Revisited: A Critical Reappraisal of the Opening Stages of the Russo-German Campaign (June-December 1941)" Russel H. S. Stolfi. The Journal of Modern History Vol. 54, No. 1 (Mar., 1982), pp pp 34-5 https://www.jstor.org/stable/1906049.
 * "The attitude of the civilian populace toward the invading Germans was also a significant factor in the campaign. The consensus in historical writing, indeed, is that a more enlightened German occupation policy-stressing cooperation among the German people and the various ethnic groups in Soviet Russia, reestablishment and encouragement of individual peasant landholding, and destruction of the Communist bureaucracy, etc.-could have swung the war in favor of the Germans. During the initial onslaught, the Germans were greeted as liberators by the Baltic peoples and favorably received in many areas in the Ukraine. Even in White Russia and the Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic, many Russian communities greeted the advancing Germans as potential friends and liberators during the first three months of Barbarossa. It took the civilian National Socialist Reich Kommissars following the field armies several months to alienate the Ukrainian and Russian populace. A German offensive toward Moscow in mid-August 1941 would have been increased in effectiveness by the lingering friendliness and quiescence of the Russian population on the central front." MinorProphet (talk) 19:10, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * thanks so much, this pointed me in the right direction. Not-so-heroic-polonaise (talk) 06:44, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Hittite pork art
In this paper there are references to pigs in Anatolian art. "The “curious razor-back animal” published by Hetty Goldman in AJA 42 (1938) 46, fig. 38 and two pig rhyta mentioned in KUB 44.6 obv. 3' and 4', as well as the boar figures in precious metal included in the KI.LAM festival (Singer 1983:92-93) are among the few representations known to us." Any help finding these references? Temerarius (talk) 16:10, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * AJA 42 (1938) is the American Journal of Archaeology, volume 42. Lazy original citing, it's actually Volume 42, Issue 1 which reveals "Excavations at Gözlü Kule, Tarsus, 1937" by Hetty Goldman, pp. 30–54. Also available on JSTOR here, but my ancient browser can no longer cope with jstor's new website.
 * KUB 44.6 is de:Keilschrifturkunden aus Boghazköi, not to be confused with KBo, Keilschrifttexte aus Boghazköi. All I can find is this page which only details the refs in the articles, from this website. Almost no information is forthcoming about this publication - here are the very first two volumes from 1921 on archive.org, but after half an hour of increasingly frustrating round and round searching I can't find even a complete listing of all the volumes or any online archive at all. It was originally published in the DDR. Vol. 44.6 is probably one of a series of short monographs by the same author, possibly only 50 or so pages. A German bookseller or comprehensive archaeological library is perhaps going to be your best bet.
 * KI.LAM festival (Singer 1983:92-93) appears to be just that, The Hittite KI.LAM festival, 2 vols., Studien zu den Boğazköy-Texten, 0585-5853 ; Heft 27-28 ISBN 3447022434 by Itamar Singer, a revision of a Ph.D thesis. This may be available on JSTOR but again the website just shows up blank for me. Hope this helps. MinorProphet (talk) 18:32, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The first one is this American Journal of Archaeology article. WP:RX can get it if you can't access full thing! 70.67.193.176 (talk) 18:33, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Fantastic work! Thank you so much! I do have access to the WP Library, but logging in to it and clicking through to JSTOR is not doing it. I've not yet found fluency in using WP library. Temerarius (talk) 01:26, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * As an alternative Temerarius, you can open a personal JSTOR account here. Alansplodge (talk) 11:36, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Aha! Found a list of KUB volumes here p. XCI [pdf 91] in a list of Abbreviations from the HPM site reffed above. Volume 44 (XLIV) is Hethitische Rituale und Festbeschreibungen by de:Horst Klengel, Berlin (1973). There are a number of volumes with the same title, including Bd. 41, 46, 51, 54 (also by Klengel), 55, 58, & 59. Vol. 44 appears to be this one on G**gle Books, ISSN 0075-532X, ISBN 3-05-001291-9 and 978-3-05-001291-9. MinorProphet (talk) 22:59, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, and I'm having a hell of a time. When you look at these documents online, are you seeing the actual pictures of the pigs? Temerarius (talk) 00:27, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes for the one I found in American Journal Archaeology. It's a very tiny image that looks like a coin or button but it's called a Bulla. There are some symbols and above them an animal that does look like a pig, but with a sort of roman helmet brush sticking up all along its back. Can't really see tail area very well due to shadows. Hopefully the WP:RX folks can get you the article so you can have a look. Tried searching for the image on tineye but got no results. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:35, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * P.S. Can you see it in my tineye search? https://tineye.com/search/8eb53d01b5eb7befe6179732d1fe322de3b13f04?sort=score&order=desc&page=1 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:46, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, the jpg is small, but the razor back looks clear! Thanks! Temerarius (talk) 04:22, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yay, am so glad. It was just one tiny image in a grid of images. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:37, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Ethics / Philosophy Of The Criminal Justice System
Hi. Can someone please recommend any books or websites that cover the ethics and / or philosophies of the criminal justice system? It doesn't need to be the entire CJS and could cover particular topics, such as the criminal law itself, the police, the prison system etc. Thank you 2.100.99.86 (talk) 16:17, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You didn't specify country or set of countries. USA law was originally based from England. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 16:35, 29 August 2023 (UTC).
 * Yes, good point. I suppose I'm thinking primarily of countries whose legal system derives from English law but within that bound I don't mind. 2.100.99.86 (talk) 16:37, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It's primarily from an American context, but you may want to look into the work of Joanna Schwartz. I've seen several interviews with her on several different topics, and she seems to have a lot to say on ethics in various aspects of the American justice system.  -- Jayron 32 16:41, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest *not* limiting it to the common law legal systems, which are based on case aw, which can be contradictory. The codification inherent in the civil law system has its own pitfalls, bureaucracy among them, but I for one increasingly see the value in a legal philosophy that is explcitly built on tenets like "no retroactive law", ie a person cannot be convicted of a crime for an action that was not illegal at the time it was committed. The law must also previously have been published and promulgated as law. This may seem blindingly obvious but by the time of the French Revolution there had been many abuses of feudal law in which the whims of a mad king could trump all other considerations. It is, if you think of it, a little alarming to consider a legal system in which the above are *not* fundamental principles. Or, if you want something that  doesn't have as steep a learning curve as criminal justices in civil law (legal system), maybe you'dbe interested in the notion of rehabilitation vs punishment, or of educating juvenile offenders, which also would have some roots in philosophy. For the former, the crackdown on gang activity in Rio de Janeiro is a good case study, and the Brazilian legal system has a couple of pilot projects with respect to the latter. It would help to speak Portuguese of course, but English-language sources, especially English-language academic sources, are actually quite plentifulElinruby (talk) 01:52, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Our article is Ex post facto law. 2A02:C7B:124:3D00:1CC5:D261:5C82:CB76 (talk) 13:40, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * thanks. Elinruby (talk) 03:53, 4 September 2023 (UTC)