Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 December 15

= December 15 =

Underneath the arches
(Reposted from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Railways and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject London Transport, where there was no response.)

In urban Britain, railway arches are almost ubiquitous. Searching online finds no end of shops in arches, cafes in arches, businesses run in arches, light industry in arches, arches for rent - almost all contemporary. But railway arches have been around for at least 187 years. A search on WP finds them all over the place, but the information is all scattered.

Does any one know of a history, or other deeper analysis, of railway arches? Their engineering, architecture, economics, sociology? Sadly, this documentary is focussed on the homeless people in the arches, not the architecture - but they are still part of the bigger picture.

So: a book? website? PhD thesis? Photo essay? Radio or TV documentary? Is there anything out there that gives the arches the attention they surely deserve? -- Verbarson talkedits 18:00, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Railway Architecture (1979), edited by Marcus Binney and David Pearce (ISBN 0-906223-62-8), has a chapter entitled "Bridges and Viaducts". It has some useful general history about bridges and viaducts (engineering and architecture in particular) but sadly not very much about the use of under-arch space – although it is stated that "the drooping arches of the London–Greenwich viaduct now create the atmosphere of the London Horror Museum" (i.e. the predecessor of the present London Dungeon).  In my own specialist area of places of worship, I am aware of some railway arches in London being used, or having been used in the past, as places of worship for various groups.  I too would be interested in reading any theses, books etc. on the subject.  Hassocks 5489 (Floreat Hova!)  22:30, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That work can be "borrowed" to read in full online at archive.org (you have to open a free account which is quite simple). Alansplodge (talk) 13:34, 16 December 2023 (UTC)


 * A 2017 thesis: Railway Arches: A Refuge for London Businesses in the Context of Rising Property Prices.
 * From the National Audit Office in 2019: Network Rail’s sale of railway arches.
 * Academic paper from European Planning Studies in 2017: Pragmatic urbanism: London’s railway arches and small-scale enterprise
 * From the Imperial War Museum: AIR RAID SHELTER UNDER THE RAILWAY ARCHES, SOUTH EAST LONDON, ENGLAND, 1940
 * Provision of Dwelling by Appropriating Railway Arches in The Builder: Volume 24 (20 October 1866) p. 772., which says:
 * In and about London there are thousands of railway arches belonging to the various companies. Some few of these are used as shops, a few more as warehouses and workshops; but the great majority are, at the present moment, totally unoccupied and unproductive...
 * Kellett, John R. (1969), The Impact of Railways on Victorian Cities p. 345: which says:
 * The railway arch was, of course, a functional necessity for many of the approach routes, if they were to avoid the wholesale street closures and level crossings, against which Parliament had set its face. All the early hopes that arches might be turned to advantage miscarried, however, and within a few years they became symbols of all that was shabby and down-at-heel ....
 * Probably enough for a brief article, Railway arches in London, which could link to several others. Alansplodge (talk) 13:10, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I can add:
 * Underneath the Arches: The Afterlife of a Railway Viaduct GER viaduct in E London
 * A perusal of the bibliographies of this and the 2017 thesis does not reveal any over-arching work addressing the arches in their totality. -- Verbarson  talkedits 14:50, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I have started Draft:Railway arches in London, currently just a dump for useful links and sources. If anyone finds further sources, please add them in. -- Verbarson talkedits 16:08, 21 December 2023 (UTC)


 * This should be obvious, but the issue of urban railway arches is not unique to London. There have been very interesting urban renewal projects using these in Berlin and Paris, for example. Xuxl (talk) 14:05, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I wasn't sure if great lengths of brick arches was a uniquely British solution; the Americans apparently preferred to elevate their railways on steel girders (probably to facilitate the inevitable car chases in Hollywood crime films). We do have an article on the very first railway elevated on brick-arches, the London Bridge – Greenwich Railway Viaduct. Alansplodge (talk) 16:40, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Bear in mind that the London Bridge – Greenwich Railway Viaduct predated Bessemer steel by 20 years. There wasn't really any alternative to masonry. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 18:12, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe so, but the Tottenham and Forest Gate Railway was built on brick arches in 1894, nearly 30 years after the New York Elevated Railroad. Alansplodge (talk) 12:57, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Two points, neither of which I know a definitive answer to. (1) Would there not be a case of following local tradition?  Particularly if the new viaduct was to link with an existing one?  (2) London is largely built on london clay whereas New York (in particular) is built on a rocky substrate.  NY was able to raise skyscrapers far earlier than London since they could go to bedrock whereas London structures have to rely on sophisticated piling. Could this have influenced the lighter point loading? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:50, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Railways were scarcely followers of tradition for tradition's sake. However, London is built on clay and (historically) of clay. I would imagine that in Victorian times a brick viaduct was architecturally and logistically easier, and financially cheaper, to build than any sort of wrought iron or steel structure. The materials and expertise would have been readily available. Railways loved cheap. -- Verbarson talkedits 21:08, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Alansplodge -- the photo you linked to was of a New York City "El" or elevated urban railway, which ran directly above the middle of major city streets for miles, and was required to interfere with their roadway functions as little as possible, so of course wide masonry construction would not have been considered suitable for that purpose... AnonMoos (talk) 07:15, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Which was exactly why the brick viaducts were built in London. Alansplodge (talk) 12:57, 17 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Not sure what you mean -- I think railways in London crossed city streets to get to the stations, but they didn't generally run right up the middle of major city streets for miles, the way NYC urban transit "Els" did. We don't seem to have a separate article on the formerly-extensive NYC "El" system (now partially replaced by subways...) AnonMoos (talk) 21:16, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, they certainly traversed miles of heavily built-up areas, if not the actual city centre. Alansplodge (talk) 19:52, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Playwrights' Studio Scotland, Grae Cleugh
Hello I was previously blocked from editing (for trying to remove my name from page Oliver Emanuel. Having more than a flailing interest in Scottish Literature, and thetre, and having had an unwelcome introduction to the workings of the worlds most popular website I noticed a couple of glaring omissions Playwrights' Studio Scotland, and Grae Cleugh.

I created drafts of both pages but my submissions were declined because I was editing as a blocked user.

Can anyone help with creating the articles ?

They are both listed on AFC 81.159.2.36 (talk) 18:43, 15 December 2023 (UTC)