Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 December 29

= December 29 =

Xiang Yu from Ming Dynasty
Who is the Ming Dynasty palace tutor Xiang Yu (not the hegemon king of Western Chu from the Chu-Han Contention) mentioned here as a tutor to the Ming crown prince Zhu Cilang? What would be the Chinese character for his name? KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:43, 29 December 2023 (UTC)


 * , this was zh:項煜. Folly Mox (talk) 12:54, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, that book you're previewing on gbooks is available through TWL under license by De Gruyter (not that the actual book contains Chinese characters, extremely unhelpfully, but still, FYI). Folly Mox (talk) 12:57, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Also available through archive.org, where you can read the footnote (71 Wang Youdian, Shiwai, p. 507 (4:29a). Xiang Yu had been driven out of office during Wei Zhongxian's ascendancy because "he was partial to the purists (qingyi) from Jiangnan." Li, Sanyuan biji, fuzhong, 22a.). --Lambiam 13:37, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Apologies for the late response, and thanks for the archive.org link, but just a general reminder that pinyin transliteration is of absolutely no use whatsoever for finding – inter alia – proper names in Chinese.I don't remember how I located the name of the "Xiang Yu" asked about in this thread, but the source was a dead end. It used to be a thing that printing Chinese characters was next to impossible: the woodblock prints of the Song through Qing dynasties were hand carved a page at a time, rather than using moveable type, and pre-1990s academic papers written in the Latin script would typically include a hand-drawn appendix of Chinese characters rather than attempting to place them in the text. Charles Hucker's 1985 Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China garnered notes in each review about how it included characters in text despite being composed on a computer, meaning that Hucker had to copypaste thousands of image files into his WordPerfect or CorelDraw or whatever word processor document.Nowadays it's trivial to include Chinese characters alongside transliterations so the native terms can be followed up on, but some popular presses still don't do this for reasons I'm unable to discern, which makes their output almost entirely useless to serious researchers who don't already have such strong background knowledge that they can intuit the identity of terms hiding behind the pinyin mask.Addendum: in fairness, the source cited above was published 1985. Folly Mox (talk) 17:38, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

14th Amendment
Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 08:00, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * USA: What are the legal / practical consequences if a candidate for a public office is declared to be unfit, based on the 14th amendment?  I deduct from the statement of the Californian official, Ms Sheenah Bellows, that there is no precedent.
 * I suspect that the case will be passed on to the SCOTUS which may / may not deem this decision to be valid. However, I have no idea if a presidential election is seen as a federal process or as a set of 50 individual sate-based processes where the Supreme Court may have no jurisdiction.
 * Thank you for any information!
 * Can you please provide context for your question, since tyou seem to have a specific case in mind? Regarding your second bullet: The Supreme Court has heard election cases before, such as Bush v. Gore RudolfRed (talk) 08:36, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, the only reference to Shenna Bellows I have been able to find so far is the Secretary of State for Maine. Please clarify what you are asking about. RudolfRed (talk) 08:46, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * , please be aware that Shenna Bellows is the Secretary of State of Maine, and Maine is about 3,100 miles from California. You are correct that the current 14th Amendment challenges to Trump's 2024 candidacy are unprecedented and will likely be decided by the US Supreme Court, and that each state has its own election procedures. You are incorrect, though, in stating that the Supreme Court may lack jurisdiction. Several provisions of the US Constitution pertain to elections of federal officials, and states can "do their own thing" only to the extent that they do not violate that constitution. Cullen328 (talk) 08:55, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Additional information is available at 2024 presidential eligibility of Donald Trump. Cullen328 (talk) 09:00, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Cartoon flag
Of what State is this flag from Tiger Mask II anime series? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.60.174.64 (talk) 13:42, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I do not recognize it as an existing flag. Flags with all-black backgrounds are extremely rare. Xuxl (talk) 18:54, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you refer to a State within the fictional story of the series, or to a real-world State? {The poster formerly knowna s 87.81.230.195} 90.205.111.170 (talk) 23:04, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * A real-life State. 193.207.150.170 (talk) 07:02, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't have an exhaustive knowledge of Vexillology, although it's connected to Heraldry – a long-standing interest of mine – but I'm 99.9% sure that it can't be the flag of a real state.
 * For one thing, flags in the real world are intended to be identifiable from a distance, and here the white markings are so small that they would likely not be seen from any great distance, so the flag would appear plain black.
 * Secondly, a fictional work such as this series would be unlikely to use a real state's flag unless the state concerned was clearly identified in the story – otherwise the series might be subject to diplomatic protests or legal sanctions for defamation, etc.
 * Finally, I have never encountered real-world 'state' flags anything like this, except the variations of the Jihadist flag used by Islamic State and others. It is clearly not any of these, but might be intended to suggest a similar fictional terrorist or illegal organisation, which seems consistent with the rest of the picture. Black flags have also been used by some Anarchist groups, see Anarchist symbolism. You will know better than I whether any of this fits the content of the series. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.111.170 (talk) 07:53, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, closed. 95.244.136.182 (talk) 08:24, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Not so fast! I should note that in the somewhat real (pro wrestling) world, black is the colour of Tiger Mask's nemesis, Black Tiger. If you want to get really real, Black Tiger II was played by a Texan and a Mexican. I'll bet that doesn't answer the question. But from Rollerball Rocco to Black Tiger VIII, they've always been a somewhat foreign menace to their Japanese counterparts. As a fan of non-anime animation, I've noticed that's often the way it goes; it's the shadiest of shades, chock full of unknown, usually flown and worn by strangers. once the protagonist and audience get to know them, they can turn out to be alright (though typically misunderstood). Same with this fine print (probably). Anyway, good luck to the OP and thank you to the former IP for letting me know "vexillology" is more than just an oddly-shaped word! InedibleHulk (talk) 01:29, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Looking for the source of the following story (Venice, 18th century, Ottoman ambassador and Venitian noblemen)
Can you find the source of the following story that I've read somewhere that I'm going to tell you in my own words (this is not cut and pasted from the web): "The Ottoman ambassador to Venice and some Venitian noblemen were sitting around drinking wine. Muslims are not supposed to drink wine. One of the noblemen asked the ambassador: Why did your prophet forbid you the drinking of wine? The Turk answered: So that we may find it more pleasurable"? Thanks. Cheers. Note: I've asked bingchat and it couldn't find a source. 178.51.15.36 (talk) 22:30, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It sounds familiar but I can't think where I've heard it. In some ways reminiscent of the Aga Khan's "I am so holy that when I drink wine, it turns to water". Was that Maugham? DuncanHill (talk) 22:35, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * On this site the story (or a similar one) is related in connection with Lady Mary Wortley Montagu, so it may be found in her Turkish Embassy Letters. --Wrongfilter (talk) 22:39, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * She says, Letter XXVII 1 April 1717, "Achmed Bey did not own to me that he was of this opinion [Deism] but made no scruple of deviating from some part of Mohammed’s law by drinking wine with the same freedom we did. When I asked him how he came to allow himself that liberty he made answer that all the creatures of God were good and designed for the use of man; however, that the prohibition of wine was a very wise maxim and meant for the common people, being the source of all disorders amongst them, but that the prophet never designed to confine those that knew how to use it with moderation. However, scandal ought to be avoided and that he never drank it in public. This is the general way of thinking amongst them, and very few forbear drinking wine that are able to afford it". and later in Letter XL, February 1718, "If I remember right I think I have told you in some former letter that at Belgrade we lodged with a great and rich effendi, a man of wit and learning, and of a very agreeable humour. We were in his house about a month and he did constantly eat with us, drinking wine without any scruple. As I rallied him a little on this subject he answered me, smiling, that all the creatures in the world were made for the pleasure of man and that God would not have let the vine grow were it a sin to taste of its juice. But that nevertheless the law, which forbids the use of it to the vulgar, was very wise because such sort of folks have not sense enough to take it with moderation". DuncanHill (talk) 22:50, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Modern paraphrase: "Rules are for the obeyance of fools, and the guidance of wise men", variously attributed to Harry Day or Douglas Bader. Alansplodge (talk) 14:08, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks guys. I'll take a look at Lady Mary Wortley Montagu's work. Where did you find the text? The anecdotes mentioned seem all to make the point that the prohibition is wise because it is appropriate for the majority of people who are incapable of drinking in moderation, but is unnecessary for people who can moderate their drinking. But the anecdote I was asking about has a different, more humorous, slant: the Ambassador was implying that anything that is forbidden is more enjoyable and therefore that the Prophet was right to forbid wine as that makes it more enjoyable, as if that had been the Prophet's purpose all along. He was joking of course. 178.51.15.36 (talk) 21:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You're right, it's not the same as what you are recalling, which is a form of "forbidden fruit is the sweetest". Lady Mary's The Turkish Embassy Letters are available to borrow on Archive.org (free registration required) at this link. DuncanHill (talk) 14:19, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Just a little bit lonely, Just a little bit sad
What does the phrase "Soley Soley mean? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:46, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've done some searching around and haven't found a conclusive answer. There are three theories on various personal websites and social media posts: it's a nonsense phrase, like some of their other song titles; it's someone's surname; or it's a misspelling of "soleil, soleil". Warofdreams talk 00:06, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Interestingly there are a few versions of the song sung by others that have it as soleil soleil including a version by Nana Mouskouri https://secondhandsongs.com/performance/21769/all Nanonic (talk) 00:09, 30 December 2023 (UTC)