Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 February 2

= February 2 =

Carte des regions naturelles de France
I'm absolutely delighted by these two maps showing the natural regions of France: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Carte_des_regions_naturelles_de_France.JPG https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9gion_naturelle_de_France#/media/Fichier:Les_r%C3%A9gions_naturelles_de_France.jpg I'm wondering if there are similar maps for other countries, with a similar level of detail. Thank you! 195.62.160.60 (talk) 14:31, 2 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Here are links to the images in a more standard format: File:Carte des regions naturelles de France.JPG File:Les r%C3%A9gions naturelles de France.jpg AnonMoos (talk) 14:58, 2 February 2023 (UTC)


 * It seems to be peculiar to France; these natural regions appear to be a combination of natural and historical. The article fr:Région naturelle de France seems to be saying that they have both a physical geographic and historical component.  I'm not sure every country makes such divisions.  -- Jayron 32 15:52, 2 February 2023 (UTC)


 * OP here. I was able to find an even more beautiful map about Italy. Unfortunately the quality of the picture is not as good. I'll try to post the links here (I don't know if I'm formatting them right, sorry, I'm very bad with these technical things):

https://blog.pentagora.it/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/terranuova-unaltra-italia-945x670.jpg https://www.levantenews.it/photogallery_new/images/2022/11/generico-novembre-2022-32886.jpg --195.62.160.60 (talk) 17:04, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * From the text at the top, those are Historical regions of Italy (Technically 'regione storiche e culturali', "historical and cultural regions"). Not really an analogue to the French map; which has a physical geography component to it.  The equivalent in France would be the Provinces of France, which were historical regions.  -- Jayron 32 17:14, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Take a look at: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territori_dell%27Italia The natural / historical dualism is quite intrinsic in this kind of topic. As a European myself I guess most if not all European countries have this sort of cultural/geographical/historical/natural/traditional areas, often not identical to official administrative subdivisions. I'm not so sure about other parts of the globe. --195.62.160.60 (talk) 17:38, 2 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I think you're going to love the maps at Natural regions of Germany and Regions of Poland. — Kpalion(talk) 23:15, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

The High Tide on the Coast of Lincolnshire 1571
In Rudyard Kipling's short story 'My Son's Wife', first published in 1917 in the collection A Diversity of Creatures, the character Miss Sperrit repeatedly sings bits of the Jean Ingelow poem 'The High Tide on the Coast of Lincolnshire 1571'. What tune would she have sung them to? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 17:01, 2 February 2023 (UTC)


 * The best I could do is The Milking Song from the Ballad, "The High Tide on the Coast of Lincolnshire, 1571" (1897), music by James Jobling. If he was famous once, he ain't now. Alansplodge (talk) 22:04, 2 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I think that may well be it, the Milking Song is the "cusha, cusha, cusha" bit, which fits with what Miss Sperrit sings. DuncanHill (talk) 01:59, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * There is a reference within the story to "High Tide on the Coast of Lincolnshire" being 'the winter cantata', which I read as an annual community performance which in this particular year was a setting of Ingelow's poem. That would imply a more substantial arrangement than Jobling's part song, unless the song is an extract of a larger work. -- Verbarson talkedits 17:32, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Another bash at Google found settings of "High Tide on the Coast" by Humphrey Procter-Gregg here and Eric Thiman here, but both must be too late for Kipling, the latter one is dated 1959. Alansplodge (talk) 19:35, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * A tantalising mention in Edward Elgar: A Creative Life by Jerrold Northrop Moore (p. 355}
 * But Edward had promised, a year earlier, to write a cantata for the Norwich Festival of 1902: he had earmarked his old project of setting Jean Ingelow's 'The High Tide on the Coast of Lincolnshire' , and it was time to begin thinking seriously about it.
 * Alansplodge (talk) 19:42, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It seems that Kipling and Elgar didn't get on too well after the composer set the poems in The Fringes of the Fleet, also in 1917 and performed in music-hall style. The well-known composer Anthony Burgess set six poems by his fictional poet F. X. Enderby as 'The Brides of Enderby' in 1977, but sadly 60 years too late. James Jobling, as Alansplodge noted, doesn't appear to have published anything else, according to the multi-language Padzirek's Universal-Handbuch der Musikliteratur aller Zeiten und Völker, Vol. 14, p. 135 (1904-1910), the equivalent of "Music in Print". Full index of Padzirek's 32-volume Handbook on archive.org at Imslp. The library of a music college might contain a copy of the Novello edition. An ad for Novello's in The Musical Times in 1897 lists the work  but my ancient browser can't cope with JSTOR's new login page. The Amazon page notes it is an import, and the same work appears in Title Entries of Books...Entered in the Library of Congress No. 314, 1897, [pdf p. 170]. So Jobling may have been American. MinorProphet (talk) 00:22, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Recent publications by Novello listed in the 1 Aug 1884 issue of The Musical Times: ESSINGTON, L. F.-"The High Tide." Song. The poetry by JEAN INGELOW. 1s.
 * Liza Lehmann lists "The High Tide (recitation, J. Ingelow) (1912)" among her musical compositions; this is the same date as the Kipling story, so it may be too late, other than indicating the contemporary popularity of Ingelow's poem.
 * -- Verbarson talkedits 15:35, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks again all. The Lehman might just squeeze in, I think the story is usually dated to 1913. I wasn't aware of a falling out between K and Elgar, it's not mentioned in the standard biographies of Kipling - they both supported the Ulster Covenant (I think the only artists who did publicly) and I know Elgar did sign in support of K joining the Beefsteak in the 1920s. But Kipling was very touchy about unauthorised use of his works (he had been pirated something chronic) and also rather sperstitious about the creative process and its use or misuse, so if Elgar hadn't asked first I could see that being an issue. DuncanHill (talk) 21:32, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Does anyone know Fukutaro Terauchi?
We recently bought a painting from him but we don't know anything about him. We can't find anything much from the internet as well. We know that he was born in December 4, 1891 and he graduated from a private school of Kiyoteru (Think I spelled it right). If possible can someone who knows about him tell me who he is and the avreage painting worth. Thank You. Can Özgören (talk) 20:58, 2 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I put his name into eBay and it returned six listings of paintings going for a few hundred to a few thousand dollars (I'm in Canada so those figures are in Canadian dollars). Those are ongoing, though; the actual final price would be different, but it'll probably give you a general idea.  Matt Deres (talk) 21:21, 2 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Kiyoteru is the name used by the painter Kuroda Seiki, being a kun'yomi reading of his given name 清輝. Fukutaro Terauchi is not mentioned on the Japanese Wikipedia (name in Japanese: 福太郎寺内). An artist with the same surname is Manjirō Terauchi, who does have an article on the Japanese Wikipedia. Some of the paintings attributed to the latter (in a Google image search) are so similar to those by Fukutaro-san, that I suspect misattribution. --Lambiam 11:18, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Subject of caricature
Given the keys in this caricature of operatic soprano, would it be safe to assume that the man here is intended to be seen as a Pope? or could this be just a Cardinal? Not much context: it was just a picture illustrating a rather general article about her in a 1915 Seattle magazine. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 21:47, 2 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Doesn't bear much resemblance to the incumbent at that time, Pope Benedict XV. Alansplodge (talk) 22:07, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Not a rather pointless pun? To my uncultured eyes "Vicarino" looks like Italian for "little Pope" Doug butler (talk) 22:42, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * good thought.
 * I wouldn't have imagined it was Benedict XV. I was thinking it might relate to some role she played. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 23:43, 2 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm guessing it is a specific role as well. I tried reading the article where the pic comes from at the file but my fading eyesight didn't see any specific operas or roles getting a mention. Maybe someone with better vision will find what I missed. It looks a bit a like something Aubrey Beardsley would create but a search of his works came up zero so it might be better to say that it is done in his style. Operas involving the Church might be a place to search next. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 01:48, 3 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Under the picture there is a list of resolutions. If you go to the biggest you get a link to 3694 × 5096 pixels. I don't find any mention of specific roles, either.
 * Would Vicarino mean jsut "little vicar"?
 * --Error (talk) 10:23, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Our article Vicar writes: "The Pope uses the title Vicarius Christi, meaning the vicar of Christ." But even if the artist knew Italian and was aware of the Italian suffix -ino, the general American public is not. So it is IMO unlikely the artist meant to create a lame Italian pun based on her surname. --Lambiam 11:58, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The term "Vicar" is used far beyond the papacy. The Vicar of Dibley, for one. I tend to the view that it is indeed a play on her surname. The character is clearly not a pope, a cardinal or a bishop, but a humble abbé, padre or priest. The keys have an aesthetic significance; but also, sacristans were often ordained clergy, and were often depicted with a bunch of keys as their job was to safeguard the holy things in the church. The "littleness" (-ino) of the vicar is emphasised by her holding him in the palm of her hand. But we'd need a source to confirm either of our opinions. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:51, 4 February 2023 (UTC)


 * The papal keys of the kingdom of heaven (Matth. 16:19) are represented in the traditional iconography as a pair, as seen e.g. in the coat of arms of the Holy See. The large number of keys in the caricature (I count six), which appear to be suspended from a rosary, makes an allusion to a pope somewhat less likely. The chair is likely also an allusion, but bears no resemblance to the Chair of Saint Peter. --Lambiam 12:19, 3 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I suspect the caricature is based on one of her roles; Regina Vicarino is obviously the woman, and she's holding a cleric in her hand; perhaps this is meant to represent Raimondo from Lucia di Lammermoor, which is noted as an opera she was well known for performing in. It could also be another role she played not mentioned in her article.  -- Jayron 32 18:31, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * When I searched for "Regina Vicarino 1915", I found she was playing Lucia, but I didn't know there were priests in it. --Error (talk) 01:24, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I imagine the theme could also be using a distant allusion to Le Fantôme de l'Opéra, the rosary for the missing noose from the Phantom story. It would work as far as a phantom in the Opera can be assimilated to an idea of the rumors, fast circulating of course particularly in opera afficionados circles, with a little Saint Peter now not out of place for activation of where dreams are bound to taking their roots from, in front of the diva. That would have been I'm certain an efficient manner of appealing to the public's curiosity, and I wonder what would have been hinted at further, considering that the year was 1915. --Askedonty (talk) 17:09, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Raimondo Bidebent is a minister (Presbyterian, I believe) and is based on the character of Mr Bide-the-Bent (a Presbyterian minister) from the source work, The Bride of Lammermoor. -- Jayron 32 13:10, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks all! I will mention your conjecture about a reference to Lucia di Lammermoor on Commons (which is looser than en-wiki in terms of being able to mention conjectures). And, yes, the literal meaning of her surname is also a possibility. They don't credit the caricature, and it could come from Italy (where she had performed, and where the pun would be obvious), plus plenty of people in opera circles even in the U.S. would have more than a smattering of Italian. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 04:58, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I concur: I think that in 1915, outside of Italy most opera goers were drawn from the more educated classes, most of whom would have been taught one or another Romance language if not Latin itself, so would be receptive to such puns. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230;195} 90.221.194.253 (talk) 14:19, 4 February 2023 (UTC)