Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 January 15

= January 15 =

First glass-covered building
On January 15 we have:

"1936 – The first building to be completely covered in glass, built for the Owens-Illinois Glass Company, is completed in Toledo, Ohio."

and on Toledo, Ohio:

"On January 15, 1936, the first building to be completely covered in glass was constructed in Toledo. It was a building for the Owens-Illinois Glass Company and marked a milestone in architectural design representative of the International style of architecture, which was at that time becoming increasingly popular in the US."

(O-I Glass, to which Owens-Illinois redirects, is silent on the matter.)

Surely the The Crystal Palace was the first building to be completely covered in glass? Is something different meant?

Either way, can we source a freely-usable image of the Toledo building?

Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:55, 15 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Britain didn't have greenhouses before the Crystal Palace? If I'm not mistaken the United Nations slab was the first building over 500 feet tall with that much glass but the very short sides aren't glass. The nearby Lever House (1950-52) was a box over 300 feet tall with all sides being glass. By the early 70s the tallest building in the world was a glass box (or 9 glass square prisms conjoined). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:03, 15 January 2023 (UTC)


 * That claim is overly broad and easily disproven with the Crystal Palace and its precursors. It should be modified or removed. First office building maybe, Lever House was the most influential model for a glass-covered office building, but there were others leading ip to it.  Acroterion   (talk)   17:07, 15 January 2023 (UTC)


 * BTW, the 1825 Nash Conservatory at Kew Gardens is said to be the world's oldest surviving fully-glazed building, according to this article. Alansplodge (talk) 18:54, 15 January 2023 (UTC)


 * But, clearly, "fully" here is relative. The Nash Conservatory has structural elements between the windows, making up something like 25% of the wall surface.  So do other such buildings, generally; but the non-glass elements can be smaller and less prominent.  I think we may only be talking about how much smaller and less prominent they are. --142.112.220.65 (talk) 10:11, 16 January 2023 (UTC)


 * The iron law of superlatives is "If you see something claiming to be a superlative (first, biggest, most, etc.), it is always wrong." While exceptions can be found, they are rare enough that if take the number of true superlative claims, and divide it by the number of such claims that are wrong, it is so close to zero as to make no difference.  -- Jayron 32 19:47, 16 January 2023 (UTC)


 * This 1933 postcard of what appears to be concept art for the Owens-Illinois Glass Company building is nice to look at. There's a much worse version of it on Flickr, but that probably doesn't mean we can have it. Potential to do a 3D reconstruction in Blender, I think. Oh, here's an alternate version on Flickr, that might be OK to use. (The first one has been nabbed by the stock image companies.) It seems to be associated with the 1933 Chicago and 1939 NY world's fairs? Card Zero  (talk) 08:47, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Version of Giselle performed in London in 1952
Good evening.

I really appreciate the little book of Leo Kersley and Janet Sincler (his wife, I think) entitled "A dictionary of ballet Terms", published in London by Adam and Charles Black, in 1952, reprint with corrections in 1953. The author gives examples of traditional dance steps in classical dance variations. Thus for the entry "sissonne", he quotes the 2nd solo of the peasant pas de deux from the ballet Giselle where the male dancer performs sissonnes, but without indicating the author of the choreography. There have been many versions of Giselle! Can you find me the one that was in use in London, at Sadler's Wells Theater Ballet (Birmingham Royal Ballet ?) at that time?

Thank you already and happy new year 2023! Égoïté (talk) 19:28, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello, happy new year to you. The Sadler S Wells Ballet A History And Appreciation says that the company's choreographer in 1952 was Frederick Ashton. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:31, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks ! really ! Égoïté (talk) 17:47, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Name for a period when writing is lost? (vs Prehistory/History)
Prehistory becomes History when writing starts. However, Greek History took a break during the Greek Dark Ages, when written records ceased for centuries until a new writing emerged. Such unwritten period seems unlike Prehistory or History proper. (Or Protohistory, for that matter.) Thanks for reading, 77.147.79.62 (talk) 19:58, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Q1: Is there a technical name for such period when writing is lost?
 * Q2: Did a similar loss happen to another culture?


 * Dark Ages. I think you have answered your own question. -- Verbarson talkedits 21:22, 15 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Linear B was a rather ambiguous script used for very limited purposes (palace bureaucratic inventorying) and doesn't create much meaningful "history". But writing was lost in parts of Anatolia with the collapse of the Hittite empire, and possibly in the Indus valley (depending on whether the Harappan script was a real writing system). AnonMoos (talk) 04:54, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
 * In the British Isles at least, the art of writing was not lost, just the Latin script. The Celtic peoples used Ogham and the Germanic settlers had Anglo-Saxon runes before contact with Christendom was reestablished in the 8th century. These scripts have only survived in stone inscriptions; presumably it would have been a lot easier to carve into wood, which of course, has not lasted. Alansplodge (talk) 21:23, 16 January 2023 (UTC)


 * There's not a single instance on the internet of the bigram "civilizational dysgraphia" (well, before now), but that's my nomination, if there isn't already something that describes it. Mathglot (talk) 09:32, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
 * ChatGPT suggested to use the term "gap period" or "historical gap". --Lambiam 19:36, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
 * For another example, see Byzantine Dark Ages, almost two millenia after the Greek Dark Ages. --Lambiam 19:36, 16 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Higher learning and literary authorship suffered, but there was no loss of the Greek alphabet. AnonMoos (talk) 19:49, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
 * True, but per Dark Ages (historiography), calls the Byzantine Dark Ages "the period from the earliest Muslim conquests to about 800,[44] because there are no extant historical texts in Greek from this period," (bold mine). -- Jayron 32 19:13, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
 * But in that context, "historical texts" refers to works of actual historiography. Other forms of literature, such as theological works, did continue. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:33, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I was unaware of Dark Ages (historiography), thanks all. 77.147.79.62 (talk) 18:04, 22 January 2023 (UTC)