Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 January 4

= January 4 =

On a Dark Night, also called The Vintage, by Anthony West
Where can I find some book reviews of this book, besides the one from Kirkus Reviews? That's the only review I've found. Thank you, Rich (talk)< Rich (talk) 07:44, 4 January 2023 (UTC)


 * reviewed in the Evening Standard on 18 October 1949. Probably more good results available via newspapers.com. Off to bed, but I can look into it soon and you can ping me if I forget. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 08:04, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Great, thank you!Rich (talk) 22:51, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

International Criminal Court detention centre
Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the agreement between the ICC ansd the Netherlands rregarding the use of a Dutch prison for the ICC's detention centre? Thanks Brightonheritage (talk) 13:21, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I haven't looked too hard, but This page contains a searchable database of all public ICC documents. If you enter "detention centre" in the "file name" field, it brings up dozens of documents.  Perhaps that is useful?  -- Jayron 32 14:15, 4 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Headquarters Agreement between the International Criminal Court and the Host State seems to include the court detention centre, but I haven't read the whole thing. Alansplodge (talk) 15:52, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Is bureaucracy another term for deep state?
I am doing a research on bureaucracy and honestly it is so confusing and it feels like it has numerous meanings depending on the context.

Simplified, it means complicated administrative procedures. But this is not what I am looking for. The one I'm searching for is the one that means "arrogant bureaucrats (civil servants) who think they have the power to push people around as they see fit". And in this context, bureaucracy seems to be another term for deep state, am I right? The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 21:28, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
 * You could start by reading Deep state and Bureaucracy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:01, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "the one I'm searching for"? Unless you are Humpty Dumpty, a word does not mean just what you wish it to mean. Wiktionary distinguishes four senses. The third is, "The body of officers and administrators, especially of a government". So there are your civil servants, but this sense does not imply arrogance; it is a neutral designation. The fourth is, "Excessive red tape and routine in any administration, body or behaviour". This is derogatory, but does not refer to people but to the comportment of people. But if you let the derogation of the fourth sense infuse the third sense and combine the two definitions creatively, perhaps this produces what you are seeking: "A body of officers and administrators, especially of a government, whose comportment is characterized by excessive red tape and routine". While this does not imply arrogance, such behaviour may be occasioned or intensified by arrogance.
 * The meaning of "deep state" is not well defined; different people use this differently. But it implies, in all senses, covert action, out of sight sneaky dealings that even the people nominally in power (the President, the Prime Minister) may be unaware off. The notion of "bureaucracy", in none of its senses, implies by itself covert action. --Lambiam 23:32, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Does that definition imply that the civil servants being more powerful than the people in power (president, Prime Minister, parliament... etc)? The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 01:22, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The "deep state" is an ill-defined concept spouted by irrational conspiracy theorists in the same way that in prior decades people used phrases like "the Illuminati" or some such. Don't give it the honor of deep analysis.  It doesn't deserve that.  It's not a thing that has any basis in reality.  Bureaucrats and civil servants are just employees that work for the state.  They aren't "the deep state", mostly they do banal stuff like policy compliance, accounting, research, data entry, stuff like that, or they supervise people who do that kind of work.  -- Jayron 32 05:07, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 * In the late 1990s, Hillary blamed Bill's troubles on a "vast right-wing conspiracy". In effect, Trump was blaming a "vast left-wing conspiracy" for his own troubles. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:50, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Not even remotely the same thing. See Arkansas Project? DOR (HK) (talk) 16:30, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It was the same type of allegation, of a conspiracy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:22, 5 January 2023 (UTC)


 * In the UK, the relationship between senior Civil Service bureaucrats and elected Ministers of the Crown was the subject of the TV comedy series Yes, Minister and follow-up Yes, Prime Minister. Many in the know said that the rivalry and one-upmanship depicted was actually quite realistic, with the bureaucracy acting as a sort of brake on over-ambitious political schemes, while elected ministers struggled to overcome the inherent inertia in the system. In the end, a sort of happy equilibrium was usually achieved. It would be interesting to know what the mandarins were telling Liz Truss before her disastrous foray into Trussonomics; probably "don't do it!". Alansplodge (talk) 14:12, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I think Sir Humphrey would have been saying "That's awfully brave, Prime Minister" Chuntuk (talk) 09:03, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

It is a term historical first used in Turkey (Turkish: derin devlet) → Deep state in Turkey, Susurluk scandal in 1996, "Turkish Gladio"... The term stands for a barely transparent structure that would be called a clandestine (secret and illegal) "state within a state". It is a network of security forces ("Intelligence" as the clandestine acquisition of information, or as Military intelligence), the judiciary, politics, administration and the underworld (as Organized crime, drugs, human trafficking). For an academic read: Peter Dale Scott - a former Canadian diplomat and poet, has written many important books on the CIA and the "deep state," including
 * a.) Deep Politics and the Death of JFK (University of California, 1993);
 * b.) The War Conspiracy: JFK, 911, and the Deep Politics of War. rev. (Skyhorse, 2008);
 * c.) The Road to 9/11: Wealth, Empire and the Future of America;
 * d.) American War Machine: Deep Politics, the CIA Global Drug Connection, and the Road to Afghanistan (Rowman & Littlefield, 2010);
 * e.) The American Deep State: Wall Street, Big Oil, and the Attack on U.S. Democracy. (Rowman & Littlefield, 2017). --87.170.206.153 (talk) 14:27, 9 January 2023 (UTC)


 * f.) Mike Lofgren, The Deep State: The Fall of the Constitution and the Rise of a Shadow Government, published on January 5, 2016. --87.170.206.153 (talk) 15:16, 9 January 2023 (UTC)