Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 June 13

= June 13 =

Royal College of Art, School of Film and Television
Is the Royal College of Art, School of Film and Television a former name of the National Film and Television School?

As...
 * - I'm wondering why it redirects there, if it isn't a former name.
 * - Why there's no mention of the filmmaking school and its former names, on the Royal College of Art or the National Film and Television School if it is a former name.
 * - And also because...

...a 37+ year old film was made at...

The Royal College of Art Film Department according to the BBC, and

The Royal College of Art (Department of Film & Television) according to the BFI

Danstarr69 (talk) 13:17, 13 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Not sure if this helps, but:
 * The College [i.e. the Royal College of Arts] has three UK partners. Each works under different collaborative arrangements: a joint award is delivered with the Victoria and Albert Museum, a dual award is delivered with Imperial College London, and the College has a validation arrangement with the National Film and Television School. (May 2012)
 * Alansplodge (talk) 14:46, 13 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Alansplodge a little bit. I've just Googled what "validation arrangement" means.
 * They don't make sense to me at all, as they're basically making another school/college/university do all the work, while they take all the credit because they're on their books.
 * It sounds similar to a couple of London Universities which I noticed were mixed up elsewhere a few months ago, as one university, sends its students on a specific course, to a building which is owned by a different university with a similar name.
 * Do the Royal College of Art film students get sent to the National Film and Television School do their courses?
 * Has the Royal College of Art ever had its own building with its own film school/department, or have they always been sent elsewhere?
 * If there's no definite answers in a few days, I might just redirect it to the Royal College of Art article where it makes more sense. Danstarr69 (talk) 15:05, 13 June 2023 (UTC)


 * has mentions of people doing film courses at the RCA. I have only had a very quick glance, it may repay closer reading. DuncanHill (talk) 15:19, 13 June 2023 (UTC)


 * At some period in time there definitely was an entity one could variously refer to as "the School of Film and Television of the Royal College of Art", "School of Film and Television, Royal College of Art", or "Royal College of Art, School of Film and Television". Some time in 1971–74 it was located on Queen's Gate, and so the NFTS, established in 1971, cannot be its successor. A building labelled "Royal College of Art (School of Film and Television) is represented on a map that is the third sheet in this set, probably from November 2004 (close to the left edge, 75% down to the bottom, just north of the Natural History Museum). The label "QUEEN'S GATE" can be seen at the left bottom corner. As far as I could figure out from Google Maps and OpenStreetMap, there is currently no corresponding structure at that location. The School of Film and Television was most likely either discontinued, or morphed into one of the current schools, such as the School of Communication, which offers courses in Animation and Digital Direction. Re-redirecting to Royal College of Art only makes sense if the School of Film and Television is mentioned in that article. --Lambiam 10:46, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The earliest sign of existence I could find were theses done in 1964 "whilst at the R.C.A. School of Film and T.V.". The latest sign is someone reporting they graduated from the school in 1986. There is a surprising scarcity of material stating anything about the School itself. "The School of Film and Television and the Department of Photography both began in the graphics school". That's about it. Apparently, the fate of the School was sealed in 1984:
 * The smallness of the space for art in 1984 was brought home to me recently when a frightening document, marked 'Strictly Confidential ', and headed '"New Outlook" For Royal College of Art' came into my hands. For those of you who do not know, the College is the pinnacle of the art education system in Britain. What happens there affects the way art is taught throughout the United Kingdom, and indeed, much further afield than that. This report, commissioned and endorsed by the then Rector, called for wide ranging expansion of the activities of the 'Visual Communications Faculty', leading to a new approach for the whole institution.   For example, it was suggested that a glittering new department for the so-called 'Electronic Arts' should be set up within the restructured Faculty, offering courses in computer graphics, electronic typesetting and something called 'text manipulation', with a supporting staff of at least six software engineers. Such a department would be the first of its kind in Europe; linked to a School of the Moving Image, it would replace the now apparently obsolete School of Film and Television.
 * This makes it likely that the School of Film and Television and the Visual Communications Faculty were merged into a School of Communication. --Lambiam 11:50, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I am looking for the correct collective noun for jews and others who went into hiding during World War II
I am looking for the correct collective noun, or otherwise, the most accurate way to refer to jews and others who went into hiding during World War 2.

I am working on articles that would be a lot cleaner if there was a collective noun or agreement on what this group is best called.

In dutch, it is "onderduiker", those-who-go-under[ground].

I'm struggling to choose a correct sentence description as most of them carry significantly different connotations.

My favourite candidate is "going into hiding", but they almost always had knowing collaborators, so it's still a little off

I have considered:
 * absconsion/absconder - obscure
 * hideaway/hider
 * going underground - they were made criminals, but not the kind associated with underground
 * going into hiding
 * Stashing/ stashed - They were often hidden in crawl spaces or behind walls
 * Abetting/abetted - they were aided, but wrong subject and seems too obscure — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bart Terpstra (talk • contribs) 22:09, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Rejected outright:
 * Refugee - They haven't left the country
 * Submergers - they aren't going underwater

Bart Terpstra (talk) 19:59, 13 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid there is just no simple English noun phrase of the same meaning. Our articles Dutch resistance and Netherlands in World War II use the Dutch term in italics, while of course explaining its meaning. We find this code switching also here, here and here. --Lambiam 21:18, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Alright, thank you, i will proceed with "going into hiding" and "onderduiker".
 * One issue i do forsee is that i might give undue weight to borrowing it from dutch, when similar words might exist in other languages, would this be an issue? Bart Terpstra (talk) 21:22, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * How about "fugitives"? — Kpalion(talk) 21:47, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I hadn't considered fugitives.
 * As far as my uneducated knowledge goes, they didn't move much or otherwise run or flee.
 * They did leave their houses and a lot of their stuff.
 * The class as a whole were made into fugitives, but it was seperated into those who succeeded at leaving the country (refugees) and those who went into hiding.
 * But as the war progressed, you might have to move, but also, most people hid people they knew.
 * I am considering it. Bart Terpstra (talk) 21:55, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * "Fugitive" has negative connotations that seem inappropriate for this situation. Actually, any such term seems odd to me. But that might just be my personal take. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 22:04, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I concur.
 * Part of it is that we (justifiably) want to use euphemistic meanings because we see the legal order under Nazi rule as fundamentally unjust. Bart Terpstra (talk) 22:07, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * How about "escapees"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:43, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * sorry, I think i'm going with the advice by Lambian. Bart Terpstra (talk) 22:48, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Then you could template this section as "Resolved". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:14, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * i was looking for how to close it, but i didn't come across it in the explanations.
 * maybe i read past it. Bart Terpstra (talk) 10:27, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I think you are unfortunately stuck with "people who went into hiding" when you don't have a non-English term to borrow like Lambiam suggested. -- asilvering (talk) 19:25, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I didn't expect people to be this interested.
 * I have finished the first draft of the article.
 * It needs significantly more citations and fact-checking work, but afaik the facts are broadly correct.
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Onderduiken
 * Thank you all for your input 🙇 Bart Terpstra (talk) 15:03, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Bart_Terpstra -- I hope you're aware that some might find your capitalization practices offensive. AnonMoos (talk) 18:20, 14 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Then, to clarify:
 * The capitalization in this post does not carry any meaningful information and does not reflect usage in the translation.
 * if you want to change the capitalization, you are free to correct it to the correct version. Bart Terpstra (talk) 18:27, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Note that in Dutch and many other languages (Danish, Finnish, French, Hungarian, Italian, Romanian, Spanish, Swedish) a lower-case common noun is used for English Jew without causing offence, although typically a distinction is made between the term as indicating a religion (an adherent of Judaism), in which case the term is seen as a common noun and lower case is preferred, and as designating an ethnicity (a descendant of the Jewish people), in which case the term is seen as a proper noun and capitalized. The Jews were not prosecuted for their religion but for their descent, so in this context also in Dutch the term is generally capitalized. --Lambiam 00:30, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I will keep this distinction in mind during translation, I completely overlooked this interpretation as I wasn't concerned with naming either one specifically, but the group of all who hid from Nazi persecution for their beliefs or who they were.
 * sorry if i caused any offense. Bart Terpstra (talk) 06:34, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Note that Jew and Jewish are capitalized in English orthography in all uses that are not intended to be pejorative. --Lambiam 10:32, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I will :D Bart Terpstra (talk) 10:41, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * As for Hungarian, none of these are capitalized: names of religions, adjectives designating religions; names of nationalities/ethnicities, adjectives designating nationalities/ethnicities; names of languages, adjectives designating languages. Examples: zsidó 'Jew' (n.) / 'of Jewish ethnicity' (a.) / 'of Jewish religion' (a.), héber 'Hebrew' (n., a.), izraelita 'adherent of Judaism' (n., a.) etc. Compare: magyar 'of Hungarian nationality' (n., a.) / '(of) Hungarian language' (n., a.), taoista 'Taoist' (n., a.) etc.
 * After a little searching, the same appears to be true of Danish, Finnish, Italian, Romanian, Spanish and Swedish, but maybe not of French.
 * (As for Hungarian, but maybe many of these mentioned languages, differences in the practice of capitalization between them and English do not end here, cf. titles; names of holidays.) Allotrack (talk) 07:16, 19 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Bart Terpstra, this reminded me that I had been looking at similar subjects some months ago (I think starting with Rembrandt and meandering on from there). So perhaps crypto-Jews is the right term? Related articles also use the terms hidden Jews and secret Jews. But of course onderduiker with an English gloss has the advantage of being specific to Dutch history. Card Zero  (talk) 14:45, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think these words will work because they seem to be completely different concepts, but experienced by the same people under similar conditions.
 * Onderduikers seized to exist in society. It is not "going stealth" on being Jewish, it's physically going into hiding because of persecution and is associated with becoming a non-person (societaly, legally).
 * Afaik they were fully reliant on others to provide for them. Bart Terpstra (talk) 14:55, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * seized ≠ ceased, for future reference. —Tamfang (talk) 00:45, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * yup Bart Terpstra (talk) 05:53, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Nothing to do with cryptojews, although that's an interesting topic in itself. Mathglot (talk) 22:44, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The most famous onderduiker was Anne Frank. The Frank family never professed to be of any other faith than Liberal Judaism. It would not have made a difference anyway; in their pursuit of the Final Solution to the Jewish Question, the Nazis persecuted and exterminated Catholic, Protestant and atheist Dutch residents with two Jewish grandparents as systematically and relentlessly as Orthodox Jews. Of course, many onderduikers went into hiding for an entirely different reason. Dutch male adults were forced to go to Germany to work for the German war industry (see Arbeitseinsatz); those who refused went into hiding. Also, some onderduikers were members of a resistance group whose cover had been blown. --Lambiam 18:11, 18 June 2023 (UTC)