Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 June 20

= June 20 =

The Sebastapol Bell
Our Sebastapol Bell, Windsor article lacks any precise details of its origin. This book says that it came from the "Church of the Twelve Apostles". Is this the same as the Church of the Twelve Apostles, Balaklava? Are there any details of when it was acquired and who was responsible? Searching is complicated by a Russian warship called Twelve Apostles (French WP article - no English WP article?) which sank in Sevastapol harbour during the seige. Alansplodge (talk) 08:59, 20 June 2023 (UTC)


 * It seems extremely implausible that there were two churches in Sebastopol in 1855, both named "Church of the Twelve Apostles". IMO it is safe to assume it is the same church. --Lambiam 09:24, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * According to the Ukrainian Wikipedia, the church, which was damaged during the Crimean war, served as the military church of the Balaklava Greek Battalion, which fought on the Russian side, so the bells were brought back as booty.  --Lambiam 09:52, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Link: Greek Battalion of Balaklava. Alansplodge (talk) 10:52, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks Lambiam, can you link the Ukrainian page please? (my knowledge of Cyrillic is a bit shakey). Alansplodge (talk) 10:48, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The article on the church in the Ukrainian WP is here: Xuxl (talk) 14:29, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually, it is here: uk:Церква дванадцяти апостолів (Балаклава). --Lambiam 22:46, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you kindly. Alansplodge (talk) 08:51, 21 June 2023 (UTC)


 * For goodness's sake, its SEVASTOPOL. Because Russian/Ukranian written B = English V, and generations of ignorant nincompoops have continued to make this elementary mistake.
 * SEVASTOPOL. MinorProphet (talk) 19:25, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * What are you, from the CCCP or something? --Trovatore (talk) 20:37, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * No, I studied Russian at school aged 12-16, and for a year at Hull University aged 19-20, before switching to French and Philosophy: but I should have stuck with the Russian, and then I might have scraped some sort of BA, rather than an OND in Engineering [ie tractor-fixing] from some now-defunct college near Oxford. Thus I am qualified to fix eg the PTO clutch on a John Deere 3050: I even possess the special tool to remove the starter motor. I can also (in theory) fix the knotters on a Welger square baler. Among my other non-mechanical interests, I have had a go at translating all of Borodin's 16 solo songs, especially "Для берегов отчизны дальной", perhaps best sung by the late, lamented Dmitry Horostovsky. MinorProphet (talk) 20:02, 23 June 2023 (UTC)


 * MinorProphet -- It's also because of the Greek root. Previous generations of educated Western Europeans would have often had some knowledge of the ancient Greek language. AnonMoos (talk) 20:38, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * And more to the point, English scholars didn't know or didn't care about the lenition of the Greek voiced consonants /b, d, g/ to /v, ð, ɣ/ in late Antiquity, and continued to pronounce them as stops. So they would continue to pronounce σεβαστός as "sebastos", whatever the Byzantines might be doing.
 * Note also that we (still) do not pronounce "Moscow" as "moskva", or "St Petersburg" as "sankt pyeterburk". ColinFine (talk) 20:54, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * On an almost entirely unrelated note, does anyone understand why the final syllable of the other Sebastopol is pronounced homophonically with "pool"? --Trovatore (talk) 21:24, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The other one? There are many others. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  04:52, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, you know. The important one. --Trovatore (talk) 05:47, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * You misspelled "generations of English speakers have spoken their own language". Just thought you might want to fix your post.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:51, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The spelling in Latin is Sebastopolis. The classical English spelling derives from this. Note that Sébastopol is the only recognized orthography in French. --Lambiam 23:03, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * And its use in the Wikipedia article concurs with Article titles. Alansplodge (talk) 08:51, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Note also that nobody uses the spelling Vosporos, even though was the Medieval Greek pronunciation. It is also not a sign of ignorance if one uses the spelling Lesbos. In a historical context, such as when discussing Sappho and Alcaeus, writing Lesvos would even be weird.  --Lambiam 10:04, 21 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Anyhow, thanks for the details of the church, the article has been updated accordingly. I take it nobody could find out who actually removed the bell? Alansplodge (talk) 12:25, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
 * According to Siege of Sevastopol (1854–1855) "Following the end of the siege, two large bells were taken by British forces as war trophies from the Church of the Twelve Apostles. Along with two smaller bells, they were appropriated and transported by Lieutenant Colonel John St George, who commanded the Royal Artillery siege train. They were displayed at the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich, before the larger one was taken to Aldershot Garrison, where it was mounted on a wooden frame on Gun Hill. In 1879, it was moved to the bell tower of the Cambridge Military Hospital, the garrison's medical facility. It was moved in 1978 to the officer's mess in Hospital Road and more recently to St Omer Barracks; it is a Grade II listed structure. The second bell was taken to Windsor Castle and installed in the Round Tower; by tradition it is only rung on the death of a king or queen." DuncanHill (talk) 15:20, 22 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks, it was hidden in plain sight! Alansplodge (talk) 22:20, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Although that ref shows the largest of Lt-Col St George's bells being a single bell of 10 cwt and ours are a pair each of 17 cwt. The mystery deepens... Alansplodge (talk) 22:30, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe they grew in the tolling? DuncanHill (talk) 22:37, 22 June 2023 (UTC)