Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 June 5

= June 5 =

How were albino slaves treated during the Antebellum South?
How were black slaves with albinism treated in the Southern United States before the Civil War, were they made house slaves? 95.144.204.68 (talk) 19:24, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * How do you know there were any? <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 19:39, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * According to the numbers given in Albinism_in_humans it seems not unlikely that there were some. --Wrongfilter (talk) 19:48, 5 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I googled the subject "albino slaves", and this link has some interesting general facts. <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 20:45, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * If there were any black slaves with albinism, could they escape easier? 95.144.204.68 (talk) 19:48, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * How do you figure? <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 20:59, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I figure that because many unaccompanied black people were frequently asked to show their pass. Also there was typically a large award for any fugitive slaves, so people were enthusiastic about searching for them. So if they were albinos, they could probably escape without anyone feeling suspicious. 95.144.204.68 (talk) 21:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I get the impression you've never seen an albino of African ancestry. <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 22:09, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * You are getting the wrong impression. What I mean't to say was that it was difficult for albino slaves to escape because of their black facial features. They could only escape if they were multiracial, meaning that they wouldn't have much black features. 95.144.204.68 (talk) 16:15, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
 * You're contradicting your previous assertion. <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 19:29, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, what "pass"? Clarityfiend (talk) 07:41, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Clarityfiend -- It's discussed briefly at Slave patrol. In many cases in the antebellum South, a slave found outside his or her owner's property without having a suitable "pass" document to show to patrollers, indicating permission to travel a brief distance, was automatically in trouble. AnonMoos (talk) 17:00, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Many slave codes (including e.g. the 1680 Virginia Act X, "An act for preventing Negroes Insurrections") include the requirement for slaves to carry passbooks or certificates if away from their plantation or city. From Act X: "[...] it shall not be lawfull for any negroe or other slave to [carry weapons], nor to goe or depart from of his masters ground without a certificate from his master, mistris or overseer, and such permission not to be granted but upon perticuler and necessary occasions;". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:29, 8 June 2023 (UTC)


 * "Looking black" was not a requirement for enslavement - indeed, not even legally being black if born to an enslaved mother (see Partus sequitur ventrem). Visitors at Jefferson's Monticello commented on how some of the young servant slaves (presumably Jefferson's children by Sally Hemings, and hence octoroons) looked just like him - and indeed, several of them and their descendants later passed for white. They were still legally enslaved (unless or until formally manumitted). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:34, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Well were there any black slaves with albinism and what were their stories. 95.144.204.68 (talk) 15:28, 8 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Not before the Civil War, but see Truevine, the true story of two African-American albino brothers, who were abducted as children in 1899 for display at a circus and were held captive and unpaid for decades. Alansplodge (talk) 15:52, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * This page also mentions the case of enslaved albino Robert Crews, who was eventually able to buy his freedom through ability and hard work rather than skin colour. Alansplodge (talk) 16:01, 8 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Stephan_Schulz -- According to the traditional American One-drop rule, anyone with a known Black ancestor is considered Black themselves. It wasn't always the law in that extreme form, but it was a well-known cultural presumption.  In the U.S. North in the 1850s, many anti-slavery types predicted that white slavery would soon be on the agenda of Southern "fire-eaters" (pro-slavery extremists), and George Fitzhugh notoriously argued for it, but it wasn't legally recognized by the time the Civil War started... AnonMoos (talk) 17:00, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed, my first draft of the text referenced the one-drop rule, but I checked that article, and while it may have been a cultural construct much longer, it only came into law in some US states in the early 20th century - i.e. long after the abolition of slavery. At Jefferson's time, most states considered people with less than 1/8th black ancestry white, and Virginia even people with less than 1/4th black ancestry. But they would still be slaves if born to a slave mother, per the concept I referenced above. In practice, people who looked "white enough", behaved accordingly, and had the means for an independent lifestyle were probably unlikely to be questioned unless specifically searched for. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:40, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Wine industry questions.
Vast majority of the most expensive wines come from red grapes, how do the most expensive wines that come from green and dark blue grapes compare? It seems the top 5 most expensive wines all come from red grapes.

Many red wines claim to be from red grapes such as Shiroz and Pinot Noir, but upon looking at their articles, they all look dark blue color. Who classifies them as red grapes? To me, I would classify them as dark blue grapes.

I also hear grapes used as table grapes are different varieties than grapes used as wine, how sizeable is the overlap? I hear Muscat is the most common grape variety used for both table grapes and wine. Thanks. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 20:29, 5 June 2023 (UTC).


 * The price of wine depends on how expert tasters rate the bottled wine, not the original grape colour. First-rate sweet white wines such as Chateau d'Yquem (from green grapes) can fetch absurdly high prices. Our article Wine color doesn't really address your question. According to this web page Wine 101: The Color of Wine and Where Did It Come From?, there are only two colours of wine grapes, black and green. "By black, we mean red." The term covers a number of pigments, and it doesn't matter too much what colour the grape is, it's often the terroir, the exact nature of the soil in the vineyard, the climate, and then the wine-making process itself that makes the difference. Our List of grape varieties may answer your third query. MinorProphet (talk) 02:24, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Trockenbeerenauslese made from the white Riesling grape can be one of the most expensive wines. --Lambiam 09:04, 6 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I read this some years ago in the newspaper, but it will take some effort to track it down... Many grape varieties are, according to modern DNA analysis, very closely related. Some are in fact clones, differing only due to 2000 years of random mutations. Logical that the exact variety of grape usually matters less than the soil or climate where it grows – which is indeed more clearly marked on the label, at least for wines from the traditional wine countries. PiusImpavidus (talk) 17:52, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Many wise things have already been said above. One additional effect is that many red wines, being rich in tannin, mature slower and have their peak later. Thus, they become more expensive simply because they require more attention and storage to bring to the table at the right time. You won't usually find 10 year old white wines, while 10 year old reds is not unusual at all. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:41, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

On the question of wine grapes vs. table grapes, there are wines made of Thompson Seedless grapes (it isn't all that bad), and in wine country you can sometimes find wine grapes in the market. I've tried Cabernet (not further identified), and it was pretty tart. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 17:47, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Prices of platinum vs. gold
Here's a table map of Pt and Au prices. https://www.macrotrends.net/2541/platinum-prices-vs-gold-prices

Pt used to be more expensive than gold in the 1990s and 2000s, but since 2015, gold has since been worth more. I'm not gonna ask why was there a big drop in Pt prices in 2009, because it had an unexpected rise too. But after 2015, Pt prices has been slightly dropping and remaining constant while gold continues to rise, what caused platinum to change? And what does the automobile industry have to do with it. EV batteries don't seem to require platinum, as catalytic convert thefts have been on the rise since 2020. In any event, does anyone think platinum will be worth more than gold some day? 170.76.231.162 (talk) 20:33, 5 June 2023 (UTC).


 * As to the second question: "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate." --142.112.220.184 (talk) 22:05, 5 June 2023 (UTC)


 * As a purely factual answer to the question, there are people stating that this is a definite possibility. --Lambiam 08:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Why didn't other juice companies turn co-op in 1940s besides Welch?
By 1945, in order to circumvent wartime restrictions on corporate profits and price controls, Welch's (the company that later bought Welch's, National Grape) turned into a co-op. The new organization would not only be immune from federal corporation taxes and pricing dictates, but would also guarantee his processing company a reliable supply of grapes.

^ So those were advantages for corporations to turn co-op. Why didn't other juice companies like Dole and Tropicana turn co-op? They still stayed as corporation. Heh. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 20:43, 5 June 2023 (UTC).
 * One reason could be that Tropicana_Products was founded in 1947, after the war. RudolfRed (talk) 01:09, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * According to Welch%27s, it did not get sold to the co-op until 1956. Nothing in the article mentions that was due to government regulations.  Do you have more information on that?  RudolfRed (talk) 02:01, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Whoops, I meant the company that bought Welch's, and turned it into a co-op with them. National Grapes, Wikipedia doesn't have an article on them, and they used to have a website. So yes Jack Kaplan turned National Grapes into co-op, who later bought Welch's. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 16:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC).

Dole produces juice, but it is very, very big in processed fruit. Perhaps the rules didn't favor diverse producers? DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 17:50, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Car industry, revive old car models?
When you have car makes and models, like Nissan Altima. Has a car make ever discontinued a model, and then years later, revived it, but under a different name? 170.76.231.162 (talk) 21:47, 5 June 2023 (UTC).
 * I don't believe so; the closest that comes to mind is the Audi 80, introduced in Germany in 1966; "years later" it was introduced to the US under the name Audi Fox; however, it was not discontinued in the interim. 136.54.99.98 (talk) 06:00, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The problem is that car styles can change drastically over 10 years. So, the exact car won't come back as a decade old car design simply won't come back. But, the concepts can return. Consider this example: The Dodge Custom 880. It was primarily a full-size sedan, but it had a station wagon variant. That was a 60s model. It died out in the 70s as large cars were abandoned. Jump decades into the future. Chrysler owns Dodge. Chrysler has the Chrysler 300 full-size sedan. Under their Dodge brand, they release a station wagon version of the Chrysler 300, the Dodge Magnum. So, the Dodge Custom 880 wagon (a wagon version of the sedan) is released much later as the Magnum (a wagon version of the sedan). It can also be noted that in between those, Dodge used the "Magnum" name for a completely different style of car. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 10:50, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

The Volkswagen Beetle ... DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 17:50, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I feel that isn't an accurate answer. The name "Beetle" is a common nickname. It is common in English and German (kafer). In French, it was commonly called a ladybug (cocinelle). In Central America, after the factories were opened in Mexico, they were commonly called bellybuttons (ombligo) because everybody has one. Through all of those nicknames, it was still called the Type 1 and it didn't go out of production. When the original factories closed, they were assembled in Mexico and Brazil to continue production until at least 2000. When Volkswagon released the new Beetle in the 90s, it wasn't a continuation. It was a new car using the nickname of the old car. But, if we allow that production in Mexico and Brazil was not official enough to count and that the new Beetle is a true revival of the old car, then we can say that the Type 1 was revived 10+ years later as a Beetle. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 12:25, 8 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Some car makers sell the tooling for obsolete models to less-developed countries. An example is the Fiat 124, which was reincarnated in Russia by Lada as the woeful VAZ-2101, the subject of numerous schoolboy jokes in the UK ("Why do Ladas have heated rear windows? So that your hands don't get cold while you're pushing them!") Also the Hillman Hunter, which reappeared as the Paykan in Iran. Alansplodge (talk) 16:16, 8 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The manager of the office where I worked identified it to visitors by telling them "It's opposite the Skoda showroom."  He confided that he hated having to do that.   It was apparently a race to the bottom between Lada and Skoda.   He used to export Land Rovers, assisted by a Land Rover salesman working on the side.   Something went wrong with one deal and the salesman came begging for him to help him out, otherwise he would get the sack (the manager got him off the hook).   Some more views:


 * How do you double the value of a Skoda? - Fill the tank.
 * How do you double the value of a Skoda? - Chuck a pound into it.
 * Owner: Can I get a windscreen-wiper for my Lada? - Mechanic: That sounds like a fair swap.
 * First prize in the raffle is a Lada. Second prize is two Ladas.
 * What's the difference between a Jehovah's Witness and a Lada? - You can shut the door on a Jehovah's Witness.
 * Customer: This Lada is no good.  I live on a hill. - Dealer: What's the problem?   It goes up to 75. - Customer: That's the problem.   I live at number 90.
 * What do you call a convertable Lada/Skoda? - A skip. Alansplodge (talk) 12:39, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Thinking about the Hillman Hunter, the Sunbeam Rapier appeared in many guises from 1955 to 1976: would you necessarily connect these two? They might as well be completely different cars, only the name connects them. On the other hand, the name of the Royal Enfield Bullet has survived since 1931, and the current model made in India (and re-imported into the UK) has remained essentially unchanged since 1948. Obviously there are some subtle manufacturing differences. MinorProphet (talk) 20:55, 8 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Not forgetting the Hindustan Ambassador, a reincarnation of the 1956-1959 Morris Oxford Series III, which was still in production in 2014. Alansplodge (talk) 12:45, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Our article says that the Morgan +4 was initially produced from 1950 to 1969, then revived for another production run from 1985 to 2000, then revived a second time from 2005 to 2020, when it was replaced by the identically-shaped Morgan Plus Four. Card Zero  (talk) 23:08, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * You murmur "Stocking tops and suspenders": I reply, "Leather bonnet straps". And anyway, every owner knows that thanks to a design dating from 70 years ago, 60 mph is the absolute limit, unless you wish to be acquainted with your maker sooner rather than later. MinorProphet (talk) 07:24, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
 * My dad worked at either Morris Motors in Cowley or Pressed Steel (I can't remember which).  Cycling to the station in the early morning (I commuted from there to London) he would often come up from behind on his racing bike and disappear into the distance.   Cycling was the way to get to the Morris works.   That was where the Morris Mini-Minor was made (my dad drove a Mercedes, my mum a Morris Minor).   The house numbers jumped by four from our neighbour to us - the missing number was our garage.   The motor works closed down but according to Morris Motors "the adjacent Pressed Steel site (now known as Plant Oxford) is owned and operated by BMW, who use it to assemble the new MINI."   The works had its own railway siding off the branch line to London via High Wycombe - following Beeching the track was torn up, except for the spur from the main London line, which is still in use as far as I know.   There is now another route to London - travelling north from Oxford you eventually arrive at Marylebone. 2A00:23C6:2417:3101:8C:D1CE:6184:B8D8 (talk) 17:27, 9 June 2023 (UTC)