Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 March 13

= March 13 =

Difference in names
What is the difference between Meenavar and Meena? -- Karsan Chanda (talk) 06:43, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 'var' --Soman (talk) 13:27, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Meenavar and Meena both have articles. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 17:55, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

John Guardian
Can you find from his uniform what was the US army, his rank, and gun model? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.102.70 (talk) about an hour ago (UTC)
 * I'll try. Can you provide direct links to images of the uniform ? Fishing Publication (talk) 13:06, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The image is in that site's gallery. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.102.70 (talk) 14:06, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, given that he is mostly obscured by them Stars 'n' Bars, he appears to be a fuzzy in the US Army Airborne Services carrying a something like a Colt 45. Note this is a cartoon and not representative of real life. MinorProphet (talk) 15:09, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

== How can CEFRL translate to WP:BABEL levels of fluency, where am I, supposing that I tested out up to level 19 on Duolingo, what are the equivalents of TOEFL for other languages especially Russian == 'beginner', 'novice',  'intermediate',  it's  not clear what these mean,  I think concrete tests and scales are needful,  not on Wikipedia of course,  where can I hope to gain a certification ? Fishing Publication (talk) 13:19, 13 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Well, it depends on how many levels there are on Duolingo. There are 6 levels for CERFL (A1 A2, B1 B2, C1, C2) and 6 for Babel (1-5 + Native), I would imagine they would correspond fairly exactly - note, however, that there are plenty of native speakers of English who have a fairly dismal command of it. TOEFL scores are tabulated here so it wouldn't be difficult to correlate all these together. Can you: ask the time/for directions? Order a beer in a bar? Go shopping? Book a hotel room? Eat out in a restaurant? Read a newspaper? Answer a question on the RefDesks? Write a properly-reffed article section on Wikipedia? Read a poem by Pushkin? Speak Mat? Translate a novel at sight?


 * You could try Russian as a foreign language test (TORFL) in London from the LSE as a starting point. удачи, до свидания. MinorProphet (talk) 14:21, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Double phonetic alphabet
Assuming you're familiar with both the IPA and the NATO phonetic alphabet, has anyone proposed an alphabet that's phonetic in both ways?? That would be an alphabet that has a special letter for each sound and assigns a code word to each sound. Georgia guy (talk) 16:16, 13 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The NATO "phonetic" alphabet is not phonetic in any useful meaning of that word; it's actually acrophonic. Anyway, the symbols of the Initial Teaching Alphabet all have names, though they're not actually shown in our article (except "zess", the name of a reversed z symbol). AnonMoos (talk) 01:36, 14 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The Bayeux Tapestry isn't a tapestry, and Cape Cod isn't a cape, but that's what they're called. Likewise with the NATO phonetic alphabet. <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 02:24, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Cape Cod isn't cod either. --Lambiam 12:47, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "NATO phonetic alphabet" is the "common name" according to Wikipedia article naming policies, and also a stupid misnomer with respect to the word "phonetic". Your other examples are lacking in the stupidity department... AnonMoos (talk) 06:06, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * They're all equally erroneous. <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 07:35, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The fundamental problem with all phonetic alphabets is that the vast majority of otherwise literate people are unable to decipher them. Accordingly, they are of value to only a tiny minority of people who are dedicated phonetics nerds. The general public actively does not care. Cullen328 (talk) 07:44, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The NATO phonetic alphabet can come in very handy when you're on the phone trying to spell something to a customer service rep. <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 08:54, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That's because it's acrophonic, not "phonetic". Anyway, I've had a customer-support person read out a sequence of those at a very high rate of speed (not necessarily NATO, "E as in Edward" etc) over the phone, and I really could not understand it unless she slowed down... AnonMoos (talk) 09:49, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Customer service reps often talk too fast. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:58, 15 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Baseball_Bugs -- something can be incorrect without being dumb, and "NATO phonetic alphabet" fails that test. As for all errors being equally erroneousness vs. different levels of erroneousness, look at The Relativity of Wrong by Isaac Asimov... AnonMoos (talk) 09:49, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would venture a guess that more citizens are aware of Cape Cod than who know the NATO phonetic alphabet. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:35, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The name Cape Cod was originally correctly applied to just the very tip of the peninsula, but the term has been since been extended to apply to the whole of it. The Bayeux Tapestry is indeed embroidery and is thus misnamed. Having visited it, one thing you notice is that King William's horse is considerably better hung than the others. MinorProphet (talk) 17:35, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That might not be a coincidence. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:12, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

See Bopomofo for a phonic Chinese alternative to characters. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 22:11, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Is Uruguay violating humans rights by not conceding the right to nationality?
Myanmar and Uruguay are currently the only countries in the world that deny immigrants any path to naturalization. Uruguayan legal citizenship has special characteristics. A person who acquires it retains their nationality of origin, which is determined by Uruguayan law to be that of their country of birth and therefore, is immutable. Legal citizens acquire political rights but do not acquire Uruguayan nationality as natural citizens do. According to Uruguayan law, those born in Uruguay or whose parents or grandparents are Uruguayan natural citizens are considered to be Uruguayan nationals.

As a result of Uruguay's unusual distinction between citizenship and nationality (it's the only country in the world that recognizes the right to citizenship without being a national), legal citizens have encountered problems with their Uruguayan passports at airports around the world since 2015. This is due to recommendations in the seventh edition of Doc. 9303 of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), which requires that travel documents issued by participating states include the "Nationality" field. The lack of a naturalization path means that the Nationality field in legal citizens' passports indicates their country of birth, which Uruguay assumes to be their nationality of origin. Many countries do not accept passports issued by a country that declares the holder to be a national of another country. As a consequence, it has severely curtailed legal citizens' exercise of the right to free movement, as their travel abroad is often difficult or downright impossible.

Due to its current and narrow definition of nationality, Uruguay could be violating the sovereignty of other countries by assigning foreign nationalities in its official documents, thus overriding their powers. Some Uruguayan legal citizens may even, as a result of the application of a national law of a third nation and this Uruguayan interpretation, become de facto stateless. Accuratelibrarian (talk) 16:31, 13 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure exactly what you are asking us (note that this is not a debating forum), but we do have an article, Human rights in Uruguay. Alansplodge (talk) 17:30, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "Free movement" is the human right you claim is being violated, but that is not commonly listed as a human right. It appears you are referring to two commonly listed rights. First, there is the right to move within one's own country. That is not impeded based on your description. Second, there is the right to leave a country and return to one's own country. In your example, that would be the right of a citizen of Uruguay to leave the country they are in and return to Uruguay. That is not being impeded based on your description. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 17:38, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What about the right to nationality? The right to a nationality is recognized in a series of international legal instruments, including: Article 15 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, "Everyone has the right to a nationality. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality." Uruguay is denying legal citizens the right to acquire a new nationality due to its lack of a naturalization path. Accuratelibrarian (talk) 17:44, 13 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Article 15 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to a nationality. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality." Those rights are in regard to the country you are born in: if you are born in Foo then the government of Foo can not deprive you of Foo nationality, or block your right to change your nationality to Fiian if you move to Fii and meet their requirements. Fii, however, is not obliged to grant Fiian nationality to just any Fooian that wants so, and if Foo deprives them of their nationality, that's between them and Foo. Cambalachero (talk) 17:51, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The UDHR does not by itself has a legally binding status. It is not a treaty and cannot be ratified. --Lambiam 12:18, 14 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Uruguayan nationality law explains the law and its interpretations. It includes:
 * The interpretation of the Constitution of Uruguay that leads to this belief that the language of the Constitution divides citizens into "nationals" and "non-national citizens" comes from the work of one of the most well regarded Uruguayan legal scholars, Justino Jiménez de Aréchaga. Jiménez de Aréchaga writes, “First, nationality appears to us as a natural bond, derived from birth, from blood.” He believed that “nationality corresponds to a certain reality of a sociological or psychological type.” Speaking for the drafters of the 1830 constitution, Jiménez de Aréchaga concludes, “The quality of nationality depends, therefore, on one fact: birth within the territory of the State.” Because of this, “nationality is irrevocable.” This interpretation is found in a volume of one of the fundamental academic interpretative texts used in Uruguay.[3]
 * Other well regarded legal scholars argue that the text of the Constitution does not demand this denial of nationality to the legal citizens of Uruguay.[4] Another issue under discussion is whether Uruguay may be non-compliant in its application of international treat conventions on statelessness and the application of those conventions under Article 72 of the Uruguayan Constitution as principles of constitutional law. This issue of the practical impact of having two categories of Uruguayan citizens, one national and one not, has led to the introduction of two proposed laws. The first proposed law is called the law of "Consolidación de la Libertad de Circulación de los Ciudadanos Legales Uruguayos," or "Consolidation of the Freedom of Movement of Legal Uruguayan Citizens."[5] It would address certain administrative problems, such as the incongruity of the Uruguayan passport with international standards, but not address the interpretation of the Constitution that is identified above in the words of Jiménez de Aréchaga. The second or alternative law is called “Derecho a la Ciudadanía en Igualdad," or, in English, ""Right to Equal Citizenship."[6] Certain citizen groups are working with parliamentarians and scholars to address the issue of proper constitutional interpretation.
 * es:Nacionalidad uruguaya includes other details.
 * IANAL, but I think that the problem would occur if the "legal citizens" loses their original citizenships. It could happen if the original country considers that, by acquiring Uruguayan "legal citizenship", the persons have to renounce their original one. Some countries don't care if a person acquires further citizenships but others do.
 * Error (talk) 20:22, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Many countries do not recognize the jus soli. Someone born in the Netherlands does not just merely by that fact acquire the Dutch nationality. So if Uruguay maintains an individual has an immutable Dutch nationality, the Dutch government may say, no, they don't and they never did. Also, the country of birth may have ceased to exist (Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Sikkim). --Lambiam 12:44, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

SVB auction
The FDIC over the weekend solicited bids (due yesterday) for the husk of Silicon Valley Bank. Meanwhile SVB's UK operation was sold to HSBC for 1 GBP. I guess the weekend auction in the US didn't produce results since CNBC says there will be a second auction soon. My question: SVB's value is now negative, right? Why would anyone bid a positive amount, even with the bailout? What do you get if you win the auction: a bunch of new branches for your existing bank? The office furniture? Any idea what kinds of bids the FDIC expects to receive? Thanks. 2601:648:8200:990:0:0:0:B68B (talk) 20:37, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The bank collapsed because it didn't have enough assets to cover all of its potential debts (which is normal for all banks, though not to the same degree), had insufficient insurance for this eventuality (naughty!), was relatively small by global banking standards, AND it suffered a Bank run. A much larger bank with much larger assets could afford to cover SVB's temporary shortfall, restructure it to improve its business efficiency and financial performance, and thus acquire many valuable new customers as well as what physical assets it has. If no commercial bids are received, I would expect some sort of Federal bailout. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.108.171 (talk) 21:19, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think the buyer will also inherit the bank's customer base, which includes power players in Silicon Valley. There is no reason why the bank cannot make huge profits like other banks. They made a wrong bet and did not hedge it; the collapse was not due to an economic issue with their regular operations. --Lambiam 12:08, 14 March 2023 (UTC)