Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 March 17

= March 17 =

Judaism questions.
When Judaism 1st finished with all their written part, this was still a few hundred years before Jesus. So there was no "if a Jew believes in Jesus, he is no longer a Jew." That rule had to come after. Has anyone traced to who were the 1st to push for that rule? And how could they do that if it's not in the scripture, and yet, you can be an atheist, but you're still considered a Jew. Then, my 2nd question is, have there been any movements (which obviously failed) where someone wanted to extend the definition, that if you were an atheist, you should also lose your Jewish-ness, just like if you wanted to convert to Christianity. But I feel these are pretty emotional arguments, and it could never happen today. Today, there are too many secular and non-religious Jews, that if you declare their Jewishness away, you would loose too many people. But you would think that if you went back a few hundred years, to when atheism 1st started, someone would have pushed for Jews leaning towards atheism to be given the same treatment as those that leaned towards Christianity. And my 3rd question is have there been Jews who flipped to Christianity, and then after some years, they find it doesn't work out to them, and they want to flip back into Judaism, can they be accepted in? Heh. Strange questions I know. 2601:249:8200:A640:88CE:5553:44ED:B785 (talk) 05:21, 17 March 2023 (UTC).
 * I have just finished watching an hour-long lecture by James Tabor on the subject of when Christianity can be defined to have become something distinct from Judaism (since the earliest followers of Jesus were Jews, considered themselves Jews, and had no intention of starting or joining a different religion).
 * One of the things Professor Tabor stressed towards the end of the lecture was that "being Jewish" could and can refer to being genetically descended from (earlier) Jews, and/or practicing the Jewish religion (to which a non-Jew can formally convert), and/or belonging to the Jewish culture. As far as religion goes, he asserted (convincingly) that in religious terms, if one is or becomes (by conversion) a Jew, one will always thereafter be a Jew. One can be a bad Jew, or a lapsed Jew, or an atheist Jew, or a convert to another religion (there have been many Jewish Roman Catholic priests), but according to Jewish religious teaching, one will still always be a Jew.
 * With this in mind, where have you encountered someone authoritatively stating that "if a Jew believes in Jesus, he is no longer a Jew"?
 * You also seem to be under the impression that Judaism stopped developing (and writing) "a few hundred years before Jesus". This is wholly incorrect: I suggest you read the articles on the Mishnah and the Talmud. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 5.64.160.67 (talk) 08:52, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * 2601:249:8200:A640:88CE:5553:44ED:B785 -- The Birkat haMinim is an early document showing guardians of Judaism differentiating what they considered to be real Judaism from aberrations, though its exact dating and how specifically it originally referred to Christianity are controversial matters. In the earlier centuries AD, there were also groups of ethnic Jews influenced by Christianity, such as Ebionites and Elkasaites.  These did not prosper over the long term, and eventually most individual members of such groups would have affiliated with either Rabbinic Judaism or "gentile"/Pauline Christianity.  Also in the early centuries, there were people who attended synagogues on Saturdays and then churches on Sundays to get a double dose of holiness; both Jewish and Christian religious authorities found them to be annoying.  Judaism has always had characteristics of an ethnic group; that's how you get "Jewish Atheists" who are proud of their cultural and genealogical heritage, and wouldn't think of denying such roots, but do not believe in or practice Judaism as a religion (only in the past few centuries, however)... AnonMoos (talk) 11:24, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The earliest such judgement that comes to mind is stated in John 9:22 -- Verbarson talkedits 21:16, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Here "Jewish leaders" undoubtably refers to the Sadduces, who controlled the Temple (though they were a minority in the Sanhedrin), collaborated with the Romans (and vice versa), and didn't want any Messiah to expel the Romans and re-establish Judean independence (which is what the 'Messiah' was by definition expected to do – the term referred to someone anointed as King). They and the Pharisees (of whom Jesus was pretty certainly one, though he also promoted some Essene-like theology and associated with Zealots) regarded each other as heretical, while most of the Jewish population rightly regarded the family who then largely monopolised the office of High Priest as corrupt.
 * Remember that the Gospel of John was composed to promote a particular viewpoint, using selections of written and oral sources, 60 or more years after the events of 30 CE, when (a) Paul's Roman-friendly, anti-Judaistic doctrines from the 50s had gained much sway, and (b) after Jerusalem and the Temple (which contained Judea's 'central records') had been destroyed in 70. Although the writer(s) of "John" were likely among the earliest definable "Christians", in the era the passage refers to the followers of Jesus were merely a movement or sect within Judaism, of which there were many. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.64.160.67 (talk) 00:38, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2601:249:8200:A640:88CE:5553:44ED:B785, in question #3, I believe you're missing an important point: conservative and progressive Jews disagree greatly on the definition of who is a Jew and on what's necessary for conversion. My father's father converted from Judaism to Christianity, my remaining grandparents came from completely non-Jewish backgrounds, and I'm a practising Christian, so obviously I'm not a Jew by the halakhic definition.  However, I've had a couple progressive coworkers tell me that I'm still a Jew and not merely from a Jewish background, and because one of my grandparents was Jewish, apparently I qualify to make aliyah under the Law of Return.  With this in mind: "can they be accepted in" is likely to get many different answers, depending on the group into which they're trying to be accepted.  Nyttend (talk) 02:53, 18 March 2023 (UTC)