Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 May 23

= May 23 =

US Cabinet members dying in office?
Thinking about the things which have happened to various Russian Government Officials, has the United States had full US Cabinet members die in office since 1900?Naraht (talk) 11:38, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes. Multiple cabinet members have died in office since 1900. The most recent I know of off the top of my head is Clinton's Secretary of Commerce, Ron Brown. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 12:14, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Good(?) to know the deaths of US Cabinet officials generate the type of questions of whether it wasn't an accident that they are for Russia.Naraht (talk) 13:29, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * There are many web pages and (assumably self-published) books about Ron Brown's death and how it helped Hillary Clinton become President ... back when it was assumed she would certainly be elected. That is the big difference. In the U.S., you can be very public about your studpidity. In Russia, you have to be secretive about it. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 16:36, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * See Here. That mentions (but does not name) that there have been a total of 15 cabinet members in history who have died while in office.  Near as I can tell, this is all of the ones I can find.:


 * 1) John Breckinridge, Attorney General, Jefferson, d. 1806
 * 2) Hugh S. Legaré, AG and interim State, Tyler, d. 1843
 * 3) Abel P. Upshur, State, Tyler, d. 1848
 * 4) Thomas Walker Gilmer, Navy, Tyler, d. 1848
 * 5) Daniel Webster, State, Filmore, d. 1852
 * 6) John Aaron Rawlins, War, Grant, d. 1869
 * 7) Timothy O. Howe, Postmaster General, Arthur, d. 1883
 * 8) Charles J. Folger, Treasury, Arthur, d. 1884
 * 9) William Windom, Treasury, B. Harrison, d. 1891
 * 10) Walter Q. Gresham, State, Cleveland, d. 1895
 * 11) Henry Cantwell Wallace, Agriculture, Coolidge, d. 1924
 * 12) Claude A. Swanson, Navy, FDR, d. 1939
 * 13) Lewis B. Schwellenbach, Labor, Truman, d. 1948
 * 14) Malcolm Baldrige Jr., Commerce, Reagan, d. 1987
 * 15) Ron Brown, Commerce, Clinton, d. 1996
 * Several of these died rather notable deaths. Brown, as mentioned, died in a plane crash in Croatia.  Baldrige died in a rodeo accident.   Upshur and Gilmer were killed by a malfunctioning cannon.  Windom died of a heart attack while in the middle of a speech in Delmonico's.  Most of the rest died of rather less interesting ways; many of the early ones died of "consumption" (aka tuberculosis), while ,many others seem to have died of heart attacks.  Webster died of liver disease, and Legaré died of "the twisting of the intestine upon itself".  None have been assassinated or died under any mysterious means.  -- Jayron 32 13:36, 23 May 2023 (UTC)


 * While not giving names, the source does tote up their respective offices at time of death."Overall, 15 cabinet members have died in office including ::* three Secretaries of State, ::* two Attorneys General,  ::* two Postmasters General,  ::* two Secretaries of the Navy,  ::* two Treasury Secretaries, and one  ::* Secretary of Agriculture,  ::* Commerce †,  ::* Labor, and  ::* War respectively. That equals the total number of presidents (eight) and vice-presidents (seven) who have died in office."
 * "† Correction—There have been two Sec. of Commerce that have died in office—-Ron Brown (noted in post) and Malcolm Baldridge, Jr. (Reagan’s 1st Commerce Sec., 1981-1987). Baldridge died after suffering injuries in a rodeo accident in California." —— Shakescene (talk) 13:53, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, we can all read it. You didn't have to copy the whole thing.  That's what a link is for.  You'll see that my list matches his with one exception; I could not find two PGs that died in office while the PG was a cabinet post, I went through every one in order, and there was really only the one.  If you've got any names I have left off my list (I have no doubt that I have missed some as well, I always assume I am wrong in some major way in every task I attempt) please provide those names.  Also, he (and you) both misspelled Baldrige's name.  -- Jayron 32 13:57, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry — I didn't mean to offend. Not everyone enjoys opening outside references for comparison. And that comparison was not at all intended as any implied criticism. —— Shakescene (talk) 14:04, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Interesting, I didn't realize that we should avoid giving references at a place called the reference desk. Well, I apologize for misunderstanding the purpose.  I will try to remember that next time I think about including a reference for my answer.  -- Jayron 32 14:08, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I can remember Eisenhower's first Secretary of State, John Foster Dulles dying in office, but in fact he died on May 24, 1959, barely one month after resigning his office on April 22, 1959. —— Shakescene (talk) 14:02, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, then, I guess he doesn't belong on the list then. Several that I found, but did not include, also died within a few weeks of leaving office.  I've paged through dozens of people in the past hour or so, so I can't recall all of their names, but I was focused on identifying people that actually met the criteria, not on people who didn't.  Do you have any that actually died in office that I missed (again, I am 100% convinced I am wrong 100% of the time, so I am sure you can find them).  If you find the ones I actually got wrong, please let us know.  -- Jayron 32 14:05, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not implying anything, nor (even less) am I trying to correct anything: just mentioning my false memory. I'm extremely sorry that you're taking it this way (which is just about the opposite of my own intention — where editors add to each other's information); and in my own defence and experience, Reference Desk librarians give information (as you have done so valuably) at least over the telephone, as well as pointing me to books of reference. ¶ By the way, I had no luck trying to do a shortcut (and search for possibly-missed sources) by asking Microsoft Edge's Bing — which yielded nothing useful. —— Shakescene (talk) 14:33, 23 May 2023 (UTC)


 * BTW, the twisted intestine condition noted above is called volvulus. Alansplodge (talk) 14:18, 23 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Frank Knox April 28, 1944 Navy
 * John Hay July 1, 1905 State
 * Charles J. Folger September 4, 1884 Treasury
 * William Windom January 20, 1891 Treasury
 * James William Good November 18, 1929 War
 * George Dern August 27, 1936 War
 * William Bradford (Attorney General) August 23, 1795 AG
 * Aaron V. Brown March 8, 1859 Postmaster General
 * Henry C. Payne October 4, 1904 Postmaster General
 * adding mostly from The Cabinet by Lawrence Kestenbaum. fiveby(zero) 16:22, 23 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Folger and Windom were already on my list before you added them to yours, Fiveby. The other four were not, so I thank you for the additions.  That brings us to 19 total, at my count.  Still hoping for additional corrections.  -- Jayron 32 16:23, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * We should just create list of cabinet members who croaked in office Kestenbaum looks reliable enough. Or a category? fiveby(zero) 16:26, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Meh to both. Feels like a WP:OCTRIVIA thing.  A list would certainly be better than a category, but I'm not keen on either.  -- Jayron 32 17:00, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Struck duplicates, added an AG, three two Postmasters General and an Agriculture . Feel free to delete any or move to your list. There are a few additional in Kestenbaum's list such as Anning S. Prall for Independent agencies of the United States government, I don't know on what basis they are included in a list of cabinet officials? fiveby(zero) 17:44, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * "Cabinet" is a bit fuzzy at times, but in general, in the usage here, it represents the United States federal executive departments, of which the FCC is not one of them. Not every independent agency is a cabinet-level department, only the 15 ones listed there are, along with the Vice President.  (some of the above aren't listed there because they are not cabinet departments anymore; such as the Post Office (demoted in 1970 from the Cabinet to an independent agency), War and Navy (merged in 1947, originally called the National Military Establishment and renamed to Defense Department in 1958.)  By statute and tradition, Cabinet meetings include the heads of these 15 departments always (they are permanent members of the Cabinet) alongside other advisors who the President decides on (usually at-will employees of the President such as the Chief of Staff and the National Security Advisor).  You can see an explanation of this at Cabinet of Joe Biden, for example, "All permanent members of the Cabinet of the United States as heads of executive departments require the advice and consent of the United States Senate following appointment by the president before taking office. (these are the 15 permanent members) The vice presidency is exceptional in that the position requires an election to office pursuant to the United States Constitution. (the VP is also essentially a permanent member) The president may also designate heads of other agencies and non-Senate-confirmed members of the Executive Office of the President as Cabinet-level members of the Cabinet. (these are peculiar to the President, though for many decades, basically always includes certain positions like Chief of Staff).   -- Jayron 32 11:08, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I was thinking myself that perhaps there could be a single list of major Federal officials dying in office: 8 Presidents, 7 Vice-Presidents & 15 Cabinet secretaries. It could be entitled United States Cabinet members dying in office except that not every Vice President has been counted as a member of the Cabinet (perhaps, however, all seven that died mid-term were counted as Cabinet members). —— Shakescene (talk) 18:29, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I suppose someone might claim that these numbers are a weird conspiracy alone, since there have been many more Cabinet Secretaries than Presidents and Vice-Presidents put together. However, given the far greater ease of replacing them (particularly before the 25th Amendment, which created a replacement process for the Vice-President) and each one's comparative lesser significance on contemporary politics, it's politically far less difficult for one of them to resign because of ill health than it would be for a president/VP, and if a Cabinet secretary suddenly falls very ill or is badly injured, the President can sack him with much less process than is required for declaring the President incapacitated.  Also, as noted above, no Cabinet secretary has been the target of a successful assassination attempt, while assassination has claimed four of the eight died-in-office presidents and has been claimed for at least two of the other four, Taylor and Harding.  Nyttend (talk) 20:35, 26 May 2023 (UTC)