Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 May 9

= May 9 =

Englishman in 1776 vs. Russian man in 1914
Is there any good way to measure whether an English farmer (assume does not own the land only works it) in 1776 or a Russian farmer in the same situation in 1914 had more rights? (Assume English ethnicity in England and Russian ethnicity in an area of European Russia which is majority ethnically Russian (for this purpose, a Jew is not of Russian ethnicity)) Also, is there anywhere in Europe in 1914 where a farmer would have had fewer rights than a Russian farmer? Naraht (talk) 18:22, 9 May 2023 (UTC)


 * You may wish to start from Constitutional Monarch and then Absolute Monarch to understand the rights and responsibilities of each society and its ruler. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 21:12, 9 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Traditionally, most Russian peasants belonged to village communities (Obshchina) where individuals did not own land, but each household was assigned a certain amount of land to work. In England, there were distinctions between those who owned the land they farmed vs. tenant farmers vs. landless laborers, with a tendency for large landowners to increasingly dominate the rural system.  In neither case was there much democracy in the modern sense, though an election was held in Russia in 1917 which Lenin prevented from having any effect (due to his hatred of democracy).  It's quite striking that English "Yeomen" have traditionally been considered to be the foundation of the rural social fabric, while their approximate counterparts in Russia, the "Kulaks", were scapegoated by Stalin as the cause of all rural problems, and shot or deported to Siberia in large numbers... AnonMoos (talk) 23:47, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * There was a big difference between the large and prosperous farms found in England and the small subsistance peasant holdings found in Continental Europe. Agricultural reforms began in England in the 16th-century, tending to create larger and more efficient units, a process accelerated by the Agrarian Revolution and the Inclosures from about 1750. Not that everyone was wealthy in the English countryside; farms employed large numbers of poorly-paid labourers, who in other countries might have eked out a living on their own tiny patch of land. Alansplodge (talk) 18:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Now 'rights' is complex concept. Are we talking about what rights people had on paper or what rights they had in practice? In rural pre-industrial societies there was certainly a discrepancy between the two. Many farming communities living under non-constitutional regimes had significant negotiation capacity visavi rulers, if the surrounding terrain (mountains, hills, deep forests, etc) allowed them to resist the armed forces of the state. Rural communities in plain areas, where cavalry could move with ease, where much more vulnerable. --Soman (talk) 14:48, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... Not sure that an 18th-century English farmer was very likely to be trampled by the cavalry. In later decades farmers were the cavalry; see the Yeomanry Cavalry. Alansplodge (talk) 18:17, 10 May 2023 (UTC)


 * In England in 1776 (as opposed to Wales, Scotland, and Ireland), there were few mountains (except in remote northern areas), and arguably also few semi-self-sufficient "peasants" in the traditional sense (as opposed to human cogs in the machine of commercial agriculture). Also, the upper and middle classes traditionally feared that any standing army would be used by the king to become a tyrant, so between wars there were usually relatively few professional soldiers in England (as opposed to volunteers, militia, etc).  AnonMoos (talk) 22:41, 10 May 2023 (UTC)


 * The (marxist in a sense?) historian Barrington Moore wrote a great book on the different role of peasants in forming the different, western- fascist, eastern- authoritarian, western- democratic political structures of modernity in east and west: "Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy". And all of Moore's work is interesting, I think.--Ralfdetlef (talk) 04:54, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't know about England, but Scottish farmers apparently had little right to their land, as they were removed by the Victorian landlords (such as the Duke of Sutherland) from the highlands to the shore, with millions having to migrate overseas to escape penury or death from hunger. The Scottish Highlands were effectively depopulated. This instance of ethnic cleansing is euphemistically known in Anglophone historiography under the name of Highland Clearances. (Parenthetically, the abundance of mountains did little to induce the Scots "to resist the armed forces of the state".) The legal situation of Russian peasants after the 1905 Revolution seems to be rather superior. --Ghirla-трёп- 16:33, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Was hoping you would show up to this question, after reading Stolypin reform and Russian Constitution of 1906 etc. Seems such a short time span and not very stable, how widespread and successful was the reform and was the Duma able to put the "rights" in the constitution into actual practice? Most introductory sources i was trying to read generally don't have much to say here. fiveby(zero) 17:00, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Boshin War
Who was the Imperial commander of the siege at Aizu-Wakamatsu Castle, and the one who meet Matsudaira Teru when she surrended? And the one from Ogaki domain's army who killed Nakano Takeko sometime before? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.208.103 (talk) 20:07, 9 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Courtesy link: Boshin War (for anyone like me who had never heard of any of this, and wondered if it might refer to a fictional story) . {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.210.77 (talk) 11:00, 10 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Aizuwakamatsu Castle states that it was under siege by the Satchō Alliance, while Battle of Aizu in the infobox says the top commander was Saionji Kinmochi, however I'm having a hard time finding a coherent narrative of the siege from any of these, or other, articles. -- Jayron 32 14:31, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, then can you find who was the commander of the Satchō Alliance during the siege, and the one for that military squadron when Nakano was killed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.51.132.94 (talk) 19:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I literally just said, in the sentence you just replied to, that I tried and couldn't find anything. -- Jayron 32 12:00, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The sources for Japanese history before the Meiji Restoration often depend on epic texts intended to glorify the nobles that commissioned them, and tend not to concern themselves with details of individuals. Alansplodge (talk) 12:11, 16 May 2023 (UTC)