Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 November 16

= November 16 =

Bangladeshi names
I was looking at the pages of Sheikh Hasina and of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, and I'm wondering what the naming convention is. Since they are members of the Sheikh family, I would assume that Sheikh is the family name. If this is so, then they're referred to by their given names throughout, similar to, e.g., Vietnamese names such as Lê Đức Thọ. My questions are as follows:

1. Is this the case? Is the convention with these names to place the surname first and the given name second, and refer to the person by their given name? (And if not, what's the actual convention being followed?)

2. If so, is there any particular reason why there's no clarifying note at the top of the page (as in my experience there are for most articles about individuals whose names don't follow Western conventions)?

3. Why is Sheikh Mujibur Rahman referred to as Mujib instead of Mujibur, Rahman, or Mujibur Rahman?

4. What is the role of the name Rahman? Is it more like a middle name, another given name, another family name, a Roman cognomen (or agnomen for that matter), or some other kind of name?

Thanks! 2601:189:8180:3C80:9D46:A702:2314:D0A6 (talk) 01:07, 16 November 2023 (UTC)


 * We have an article Bengali name, for what it's worth. AnonMoos (talk) 04:59, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link. It does clarify the typical name order (given, then surname), although it isn't a hard and fast rule. It also gives some idea of what Rahman might be — perhaps a dak nam.
 * But it unfortunately doesn't really bring closure to any of my 4 questions: Rahman being a dak nam is just a guess on my part, and the Bengali name article doesn't indicate whether there's a custom of referring to people by their given name in formal settings such as an encyclopedia.
 * Nevertheless, it does shed some light on the subject. 2601:189:8180:3C80:9D46:A702:2314:D0A6 (talk) 05:22, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Mujibur isn't a separate name on its own, it's wikt:مجيب plus the Arabic definite article that's usually "al". See Rahman (name) for similar examples. You can find the same name written as "Shaikh Mujib al-Rahman" . In subsequent mentions he's referred to as "Mujib al-Rahman", which seems sensible. --Amble (talk) 17:37, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
 * That makes sense, thanks. Does this mean that Mujib is the bhalo nam, and the Bengali convention is to refer to a person by that name rather than the family name? (And the same for Sheikh Hasina?)
 * And is al-Rahman then his dak nam? Or is it part of his bhalo nam, or something else? (And/or am I misunderstanding how those names work?)
 * Also, if it's true that Bengali names usually list the given name before the family name, is there any significance / known reason why the Sheikh family has their family name first? Or is it just the way that family happens to do it, with no deeper meaning behind it?
 * 2601:189:8180:3C80:B448:A5A4:2E34:B9BF (talk) 20:18, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that "Mujibur Rahman" is a single name, which would be the bhalo nam. We have an article Shaikhs in North India that sheds some light on the Sheikh family name. The name order seems to come from the original use as an honorific. --Amble (talk) 22:03, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I also found this article, which lists some other aristocratic Bengali names as well. A common thread seems to be not only listing the family name first as you said, but also referring to the subjects by their given names. Examples include Khondakar Ashraf Hossain and Kazi Keramat Ali. This contrasts with, e.g., Fakhruddin Ahmed, whose family name is listed second, and who is referred to by his family name. (Or at least I assume that's his family name, because his father is given as having the last name Ahmed as well.)
 * Looking at these, I notice that Hossain and Ali are called by what I presume are the second parts of their given names, whereas Mujib is called by the first. Do you know why that is?
 * 2601:189:8180:3C80:55D7:837:CE23:A62 (talk) 16:49, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Edouard Longue
I'm looking for information about Edouard Longue, a French journalist and food critic. I will be grateful for any bit of info about him, especially for the his DOB and DOD (I only know he was professionally active in the 1960s). A picture of him would be great plus. I'm okay with sources in French. — Kpalion(talk) 13:19, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I can find the following: in 1968, he was president of the association of French food journalists (Union francaise des journalistes, écrivains et éditeurs gastronomes). A similarly named grouping exists to this day . In 1970, he published a book on Jewish cooking "Le Livre de la cuisine juive, les bons petits plats de la cuisine cachère", which was reviewed in a few newspapers at the time. The French National Library catalogue also lists a 1958 book "Notre Dame des maçons" (Our Lady of masons) with no further indication whether it is a work of fiction or non-fiction . Finally, he seems to have authored one or more books on the diet of yoga. No birth or death dates are listed for him, and I cannot find articles more recent than the mid-1970s with his dateline. His daughter, Kâth Longue is a visual artist with a web page that includes contact info; you could try getting in touch with her.  --Xuxl (talk) 16:13, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Xuxl. That's already something. — Kpalion(talk) 09:27, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The original edition of Notre Dame des maçons had the subtitle La vie du roi Salomon (The Life of King Solomon). The work is characterized here as a novel. --Lambiam 12:39, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Springer Link access
I found a book that looks promising, but it's only accessible to people affiliated with certain institutions. Does anyone here have access to Springer Link and could get a chapter for me? It's H. L. Cracknell, G. Nobis, Gastronomy and Gastronomes, pages 310-342, in: Practical Professional Gastronomy, 1985. The abstract says that E. Longue is discussed in this chapter. — Kpalion(talk) 23:27, 17 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Did you get it yet? If, not, let me share the link to WP:RX, an amazing service to get wikipedia writers articles just like this. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 18:34, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * User:Kpalion, do you have WP:TWL access? If so, log in there and try this link. Folly Mox (talk) 18:52, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm logged in with TWL, but can still only access a preview. I now made a request at WP:RX. Thanks for the tips! — Kpalion(talk) 23:25, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Wow I genuinely thought we had access when I looked at it earlier today. Apologies for the mix-up. Guess it's time for me to learn how to read 🙃 Folly Mox (talk) 23:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe I need to make some additional request in TWL, specifically for access to Springer Link? — Kpalion(talk) 00:08, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
 * TWL does provide access to Springer, but not all of their content is available through the TWL account. Some of the publishers keep certain content at a higher access level or something. I feel like De Gruyter and Wiley have similar situations, but I may be misidentifying which publishers. Folly Mox (talk) 00:21, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Aren't most/all car companies like this?
This news article is a Chicagoland story where, a pregnant mother was carjacked with a 2 year-old inside. But they had the app for geo-locator. When the police called the car company, they refused to give police the details of it, over an unpaid $150. And so, the father had to say a credit card number over the phone to continue. And so, the family later sued Volkswagen as well as another company responsible for the app. https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/illinois-family-couldnt-get-gps-data-for-carjacked-vehicle-with-son-inside-unless-they-paid-a-fee-lawsuit I'm just wondering, wouldn't all car companies be like that? I'm not here to ask if they have a chance of winning the lawsuit (even though it seems like a purely emotional lawsuit), but before I jump on a bandwagon to say "boycott Volkswagen" I wonder if pretty much all car companies are like that? Or maybe it depends on the individual over the phone. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 15:48, 16 November 2023 (UTC).
 * To simplify: Are there companies that would respond to the request "Let me use your service that I haven't paid for" with the response "Pay first, then you can use it"? Yes. There are companies like that. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 17:12, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Or at least, serve it when the police ask for it, as opposed to anyone else asking for it. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 17:55, 16 November 2023 (UTC).
 * That would be with a warrant. So, it would be police going to a judge to plead the case, then the judge issuing a warrant for the information, then the police delivering that to the company. Even then, some companies fight against warrants. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 14:47, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * See Uli Derickson. This is not a new phenomenon. 194.73.48.66 (talk) 18:11, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
 * This is fiction, but there is a scene in Dr. Strangelove in which Captain Mandrake is desperately trying to make an emergency phone call to the US president from a pay booth, but is fifty-five cents short. The operator refuses to make the connection as well as a collect long-distance call, citing "policy". --Lambiam 23:13, 16 November 2023 (UTC)


 * In many countries, refusing to assist a police officer is a punishable offence. Even if not, I suspect that many companies might regard it as their civic or humanitarian duty to help in an emergency, if only to avoid terrible publicity if they didn't. Alansplodge (talk) 23:03, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Can that ever apply to over the phone? Lol. I'm thinking probably not. 199.36.244.32 (talk) 22:23, 21 November 2023 (UTC).

Alex and Steve
Can someone explain this joke?

CW: religious blasphemy, I think. I do understand what the church was getting at about Adam and Steve, but I don't know who Alex was. Also, if I remember right, Adam and Eve came way before Jesus, but that is a separate issue. Thanks. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:6375 (talk) 20:07, 16 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I think it's a reference to Minecraft, where there was originally one default player character named Steve, with a second default called Alex introduced later. 2601:189:8180:3C80:B448:A5A4:2E34:B9BF (talk) 20:24, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Some sects believe that Jesus is God, and that God fashioned Adam and Eve. Note that John 8:58 has Jesus saying, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am". --Lambiam 22:36, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Ah thanks, I never would have figured out the part about Minecraft. Jesus being God and also being the son of God reminds me of the song I'm My Own Grandpa but I haven't looked into it. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:6375 (talk) 01:27, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Not exactly. It's called the Trinity. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:14, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Is it problematic in Islam to display a picture of a mosque edited by AI?
Hi, I want to display a picture of a mosque edited by AI (adding more futuristic style to the building - not something that I find offensive). The mosque is NOT one of Islam most holiest places. Is this a taboo in Islam? Or is it okay? 2A06:C701:4B36:7100:99CC:7B1D:18F6:DE76 (talk) 22:09, 16 November 2023 (UTC)


 * AFAIK neither the Qur'an nor any hadith refer to AI. The prohibition found in some hadiths does not depend on the maker of the image, but on what is depicted. Specifically, some schools prohibit the depiction of people or more generally animate beings. See Aniconism in Islam. There is no taboo by itself on the depiction of buildings, including holy mosques. Whether someone's sensibilities might be offended by the depiction of an imaginary change to a mosque is hard to predict, but it would not be a doctrinal transgression. The depiction of an imaginary change to the Qur'an, however, will be found irreverent and elicit strong responses. --Lambiam 22:51, 16 November 2023 (UTC)


 * File:Mosque02.svg, a non-specific image of a mosque (though not generated by AI), is found by template inclusion on quite a few Islam-related articles, and so presumably does not give offense... AnonMoos (talk) 22:32, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I note that Islamic architecture is frequently decorated with alphabetic inscriptions, often highly stylized. Given that AI currently has trouble remembering how many fingers humans have on each hand, I would suggest caution when using it to amend pictures containing inscriptions. No doubt AI can make it look very convincing, but probably not to a reader of Arabic (or whichever language is in use). Corrupting a sacred text is almost certainly frowned upon. -- Verbarson talkedits 22:19, 18 November 2023 (UTC)