Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 November 6

= November 6 =

Teaching children things with certain terminology
Suppose a book teaches children about star colors with these words:

''Cool stars are red. Warmer stars, like the sun, are yellow. Hot stars are white. Very hot stars are blue.''

Do you think it is obvious that this does not mean that red stars are cool in the human-friendly sense (that is, like a nice autumn day)?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:57, 6 November 2023 (UTC)


 * @Georgia guy not unless the children have already been told that all stars are face-meltingly hot, no. -- asilvering (talk) 01:22, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * No, not obvious. Children (people) will learn based on personal experience that terms expressed on a bivalent scale are relative: big vs. small for a person, a car, or a tree are not the same; close vs. far for a living room chair, a building, or a landscape feature; fast vs. slow, and so on. When something is outside their personal experience, they have to learn about it indirectly, and since they won't have any personal experience with star temperature, they won't have any framework in which to estimate what a "cool star" might be like, unless it is explained to them or they learn on their own. Adults are no different, and if they run into familiar relative terms in a field with which they are unfamiliar, they won't know, either. Is a cold night on Venus closer to -290°F or 725°F? In the end, it's not really about children vs. adults, but about humans who have or haven't learned about something about which they have no personal experience. Mathglot (talk) 03:11, 6 November 2023 (UTC)


 * If one single line tells about cool and hot stars, it will be obvious that those stars are cool or hot relative to other stars. And any decent childrens book on astronomy that tells about colours of stars in one chapter, will have mentioned in an ealier chapter that all stars are hot (thousands or tenthousands of kelvins). Children eager to learn will read such a book from start to end and won't be mistaken. Adults are more likely to be fooled by a statement like this. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:05, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I think that replacing "cool" with "cooler" would reduce the potential for misunderstanding. I largely agree with what wrote above, but some children may have been sick or playing hooky when the earlier chapter was taught. Cullen328 (talk) 09:15, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * For the entirety of my schooling after the age of six, I always knew more about astronomy than any of my school teachers. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.5.208 (talk) 19:50, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe worth mentioning here that the Sun, though classed as a yellow dwarf star, is actually white. In fact our notion of "white" most likely derives from the spectrum of the Sun.  The reason we think it's yellow is that we can't look at it comfortably except when it's low in the sky, and at those angles the color is altered by Rayleigh scattering and so on. --Trovatore (talk) 19:54, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

2066 and all that
I notice that the 1000th anniversary of the Battle of Hastings is coming up in 2066, fairly soon on the scale of this thing. Are there likely to be any celebrations, protests, memorials, or anything like that? Assuming the world is still around, of course. And, would "From the Channel to the ocean, put the Normans back in motion!" be ok as a protest chant? Or maybe the Saxons instead of the Normans, depending. Thanks for any wisdom. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:D2BC (talk) 03:21, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * As it says at the top of this and every other Reference desk, "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate." If we did, I would answer that it is impossible to say what social and political movements might have arisen in 43 years from now, and it is not totally impossible that one might arise that recreates and exploits false anti-Norman sentiments, just as the Nazis exploited a (fictional) "Aryan" identity in the 1930s. A science fiction story or novel might be written along such lines.
 * I say 'false' sentiment because Normans and 'Saxons' (actually including Angles, Jutes, Frisians and Franks), not to mention the later 'Danes', have long been throughly intermingled and intermarried, so virtually no-one in Britain in 2023 can validly identify as significantly one over another, although of course family names have persisted. Celts are a little more distinct, but only in regions – I suspect the majority of people in England with originally Scots/Welsh/Irish surnames are as much English as Celtic, if not more so.
 * Given human propensity for anniversaries and celebrations, it seems to me likely that there will be commemorations in 2066. From today's perspectives, I would be astonished (were I to live that long) if there were to be any 'anti-Norman' representations. I think it more likely that climate change will have collapsed global civilisation, or AIs will have brought about The Singularity by then.
 * However, we don't, so the above is all worthless (not to mention unreferenced) and probably someone will blank or collapse it shortly. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.5.208 (talk) 04:40, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * great answer Elinruby (talk) 06:52, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Who cares about the Battle of Hastings? Britain to the Britons! --Lambiam 13:46, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * "Take your fancy foreign Beaker culture and shove it!" {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.5.208 (talk) 19:39, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

(This is OP) if there is published commentary on the topic then that's fine, but anyway stop worrying. The question is partly about how present-day UK inhabitants feel about the Norman conquest. Here in the US we used to celebrate Columbus day but more recently there has been some reconsideration and a move to rename the holiday "Indigenous People's Day". The Battle of Hastings article doesn't mention anything similar which left me wondering. Thanks. 2602:243:2007:9330:2117:6AE3:8B4F:8059 (talk) 09:23, 6 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I suspect the British perspective is different because the arrival of the Normans didn't herald a genocide. 91.194.221.225 (talk) 11:05, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed. The British people who are upset about the Norman conquest are mostly white nationalists. -- asilvering (talk) 12:10, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * See Harrying of the North. Not a genocide by most definitions, but brutal. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:13, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Depends a bit upon definitions. Do the northern English count as a "genus"?  Is 75% killed or displaced a "-cide"?  This one was always a good debate in school debating societies, mainly because there is no clear answer! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 12:25, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * A "gens" rather than a "genus". {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.5.208 (talk) 19:41, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oops! You are quite correct. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 19:49, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * In 1966, the 900th anniversary was celebrated by the issue of commemorative stamps, a service at Battle Abbey and a banquet at Hastings. As far as I can tell, the Royal Family was not involved. There was a bit of a diplomatic flurry about whether President Charles de Gaulle should be invited (we were having a row with them about the French withdrawal from the NATO command structure) and it was thought that he might make rude remarks. In the end, the invitation went to Prince Jean de Broglie, who was Secrétaire d'État aux Affaires étrangères (foreign secretary) and happily came from Normandy. See Commemorating 1066 in 1966, a diplomatic dilemma?
 * Since then, the accepted historical narrative has changed somewhat: up to the 1960s, the Norman Conquest was primarily viewed as the displacement of the backward Anglo-Saxons by the civilised Normans, whereas recent scholarship has shown pre-Conquest England to be a well-ordered, prosperous and cultured society, which is precisely why William wanted to get his hands on it. Then there is the question of Norman expansion into Wales, Ireland and Scotland, which are still issues today. Alansplodge (talk) 13:12, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Despite WP:CRYSTAL, I will venture to guess that the milleniversary will be taken seriously in places near the point of arrival. -- Verbarson talkedits 13:38, 6 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Quite possible that Ms Suella Braverman, the Home Secretary, will return Normans to the Normandy, an underpopulated area of the southern island Eurasia. And why not move Anglo-Saxon invaders to their homeland?  For the resident Saxe-Coburg-Gothas there may be some exemption...  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:32, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * No exemptions! Britain belongs to the Britons! --Lambiam 10:13, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 *  Belongs to the 'o? 'O are the Britons?--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:30, 8 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I think the 400th anniversary of the Spanish Armada in 1988 was marked without much anti-Spanish sentiment, though separate English and Spanish people still exist -- while Hastings was twice as long ago, and separate Norman and Saxon groups in England don't exist (as mentioned above). AnonMoos (talk) 21:49, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. Btw I don't think it's particularly speculative or prognosticative to say that the 300th anniversary (tricentennial) of the US declaration of independence will have both celebrations and protests, just like the bicentennial in 1976 did. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:6375 (talk) 21:24, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * As I recall, the National Geographic article on the 900th anniversary of the Norman Conquest said that in at least one local newspaper every year on the anniversary, someone would place a personals ad lamenting the demise of the Saxon royalty. I wonder if that's still done? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:52, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Molasses candy
There's a charming little tune by an Elizabeth Mitchell, who I think is likely not the one we have an article on but I can't be sure of that, called "Little Bird, Little Bird", and it has the lyric fine molasses candy, or possibly find molasses candy. Does anyone know which?

To my ear it sounds like "fine", but search hits are split; a majority of them seem to have "find". --Trovatore (talk) 19:42, 6 November 2023 (UTC)


 * It is "find" in the captions of this Smithsonian video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG2T-GXDRhk. Modocc (talk) 20:46, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks; yes, I have found transcriptions with both versions. I'm looking for some more definitive answer. --Trovatore (talk) 20:49, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Towards the end of the Smithsonian video she clearly says "find" at some point. However I now see it seems to be a traditional folk song, so there may not be a definitive answer (another version says "buy molasses candy"). --Trovatore (talk) 21:13, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * This isn't a random user generated video because the video is published by "Smithsonian Folklife"and her label for the recording is Smithsonian Folkways Recordings. I have been unable to find the song as sung by Pete Seeger mentioned by her in the video and the album notes. Modocc (talk) 21:17, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It is odd. She writes "4. little bird, little bird
 * My favorite recording of this song is by Pete Seeger on his Smithsonian
 * Folkways album Birds, Beasts, Bugs & Fishes (Little & Big Animal
 * Folk Songs)." which is apparently different from Birds, Beasts, Bugs & Fishes (Little & Big) because the song is not listed. Modocc (talk) 21:56, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I bet it's called "Fly Through My Window"! Modocc (talk) 21:59, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes and he clearly sings that other version "buy molasses candy" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwtZs7YyxEo too. Modocc (talk) 22:06, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The earliest reference to this song that Google Books can find me is Folk songs of Peggy Seeger: 88 traditional ballads and songs, 1964, p. 90 (see Peggy Seeger) has in the search result:
 * Little Bird. A children's singing game descended from "Comes a Little Blue Bird Through My Window", a ring game still played by small girls in Britain... and definitely says "buys molasses candy". Not sure if this helps. Alansplodge (talk) 22:15, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * BTW, the British song referenced above goes: Comes a little blue-bird through my window, / Comes a little blue-bird through my door, / Come a little blue-bird through my window, / Hi diddle om pom day. Curiously, we don't have bluebirds in the UK, but it could just be a bird which is blue, like a blue tit. Alansplodge (talk) 18:34, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Apparently they could be found over the White Cliffs of Dover in 1945. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 12:14, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * We do have a Blue Bird in Britain. DuncanHill (talk) 12:33, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * (ec x2) is the earliest i've found. Points to  for the game, and  which is either an error or i misread the citation. Or does Elizabeth Mitchell sound like a Spanish muleteer? fiveby(zero) 22:23, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * That citation probably should have been to which points to  with "Hurrah for ginger snaps!". fiveby(zero) 23:05, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Also from the Journal of American Folklore (1920) here is yet another version of this singing game's song titled Bluebird played in Michigan. The molasses candy is not mentioned though... :-) Modocc (talk) 01:47, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * "Little Bird, Little Bird"/"Fly Through My Window" is apparently a circle game in which the children take turns being the flying little bird, said to be similar to the song "Bluebird, Bluebird". In the lyrics, buy is an imperative, coordinated with the imperative fly, so the imperative find could serve as a replacement in a moneyless economy. --Lambiam 10:08, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The Elizabeth Mitchell concerned is Elizabeth Mitchell (musician) and her version is on the album You Are My Little Bird. DuncanHill (talk) 22:28, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Nice find, thanks! I suppose I could have checked the disambig link in the hatnote. --Trovatore (talk) 23:16, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Who wants to create Molasses candy? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:43, 13 November 2023 (UTC)