Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 October 19

= October 19 =

Pinol and pinole
Trying to sort out whether these are two separate things or two names for the same thing. es:Pinol appears to conflate them. We have two separate articles Pinol and Pinole, but they use the same lead illustration. At the very least, if they are distinct then one of them must be wrong to use that illustration.

On Wikidata, asserts that pinole is also known as pinol. Commons has commons:Category:Pinol and commons:Category:Pinole (the latter currently has no parent categories; that's what got me looking at this). - Jmabel &#124; Talk 01:26, 19 October 2023 (UTC)


 * So there appear to be two food items: (a) a flour made from toasted maize kernels; (b) a drink made from that flour. Both of the terms pinol and pinole appear to be in use for the flour as well as the drink, but which one is used can differ by locality. According to Wiktionary, which only mentions the flour, the form pinol is used in Costa Rica, Cuba, Ecuador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua. Since the drink is associated with Ecuador, this may give rise to the preferred use of pinol for the drink as a loanword in English. Curiously, the ingredients for pinol listed in our article do not include maize flour. The article es:Pinole confirms that in South America usually máchica, a toasted barley flour, is used for the drink, which leaves mainly Mexico for the Hispanic area where pinole flour is usually used for the pinol drink. Origin stories of food items, such as the attribution of the invention of the pinol drink to Rafael Emilio Madrid of Salcedo, Ecuador, are often apocryphal. It is (for example) possible that Rafael Emilio Madrid of Salcedo, Ecuador, was aware of a Mexican maize flour-based pinole drink and hit on the idea of recreating it, replacing the maize flour by more readily available barley flour and making it more palatable by adding cane sugar and spices. --Lambiam 06:23, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the reopening of
Bardo museum in Tunis. It was closed about a year ago, due to closing its neighbor, the parliament. They said it would reopen in the last Sept. Does anyone know when it will reopen ? (the problem is that even its website isn't accessible, which is bad news for researchers). בנצי (talk) 10:03, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Here's a recent report from Reuters (from early September) saying (as far as I am able to read this) that it will be reopened but no date had been given yet. And even more recently, Arab News says it was reopened on 14 September. --Wrongfilter (talk) 11:03, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * My question was partly based on the 1st publication. If 'Arab News' is correct, the museum's website should have been accessible already by now (or not ?). Remains a challenging riddle. בנצי (talk) 14:02, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe, it would be a good idea addressing The Tunisian Culture Ministry directly, regarding the issue of the website, provided their e-address can be found. בנצי (talk) 14:08, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The website works for me. It looks like it hasn't been updated for a while (since 2019?) and the 'contact' page gives a 404. --Wrongfilter (talk) 14:53, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it was opened on 14 September 2023 as gazetted. . 2A00:23C5:E103:3301:4806:2E49:199A:4326 (talk) 15:19, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Wow. It means there must be another reason for the denied accessibility. It doesn't happen with anywhere else. בנצי (talk) 16:38, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Appnoting
I stumbled on this "portrait" of a Chinese emperor, used on many WP:s, and if it is what it says it is (2021 usergenerated work), I don't think it should be on any WP. There may be more. Started a discussion at Talk:List_of_emperors_of_the_Han_dynasty, your input is welcome. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:41, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Palestinian war.
I been thinking of these lately. I have 2 theories on how the war started, wondering which is more accurate. Not that anyone here keeps track of it. My 1st theory is that Palestine was asked to leave Israel in 1948, and they've been in back-and-forth casualty since. But another theory is that because of the Holocaust happened that killed 6 million Jews, then Palestinians felt sympathetic and actually voluntarily gave up the land. Because, how much casualty happened in the preceding years from 1948 - not much? So decades after Palestinians gave up Israel, over the decades they started to change their mind and want it back and therefore cause wars to it. So my 2nd theory would suggest there wasn't much casualty in the 1950s, '60s, '70s, etc. On a side question regarding employment, Palestinians that had jobs in 1948, does the company relocate with them? Because, you don't want to move out of a city if your job stays in the city, but if your job relocates, then you usually relocate with it. So I'm wondering how did that work. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 14:59, 19 October 2023 (UTC).
 * When the British moved out (in 1948 I believe) the Arab nations mounted a concerted attack with the intention of destroying Israel.  They failed.   I see no evidence that the Arabs are any less aggrieved at the occupation than they were then - look at how vigorously they attempted to defend the Old City of Jerusalem which passed from Jordanian to Israeli control in (I believe) 1967. 2A00:23C5:E103:3301:4806:2E49:199A:4326 (talk) 15:25, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Correct: 1948 & 1967, respectively. These are historical facts, not believes. בנצי (talk)) 16:28, 19 October 2023 (UTC)


 * For the history leading up to the events of 1948, read the articles Mandatory Palestine and 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 5.68.252.202 (talk) 16:53, 19 October 2023 (UTC)


 * 170.76.231.162 -- Why don't you study some real history, instead of pointlessly speculating in an absence of facts. The Holocaust did gain Jewish nationalism some vague overall sympathy, especially in the United States, but UK Foreign Secretary Ernest Bevin was distinctly unimpressed by it, much less the overwhelming majority of Arabs.  The undisputed leading Palestinian political personality from 1929 to 1964, Hajj Amin al-Husseini was a Nazi collaborator who had personal meetings with Hitler and Himmler, while after WW2, Arab countries welcomed Nazis such as Johann von Leers and Alois Brunner... AnonMoos (talk) 12:09, 20 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Also have a look at the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine against Jewish immigration; estimates of Palestinian deaths vary from 2,000 to 5,000. This was only a decade before the foundation of the state of Israel. Alansplodge (talk) 13:42, 20 October 2023 (UTC)