Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 October 7

= October 7 =

Essex lorry deaths
I'm really confused. The smugglers including the lorry drivers knew that there were people inside. Why didn't they just poke a hole for air or build an air ventilation or something? This whole tragedy could have been easily avoided, while the smugglers got to keep the money (that was paid for the smuggling). What were they (smugglers) thinking? How did they not know that people cannot survive without air (oxygen)? 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:F87B:BAD7:F739:AB61 (talk) 04:29, 7 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Without knowing the specifics of this case, there are several ways how this could happen.
 * Maybe the smugglers were indeed too stupid to think about oxygen.
 * Maybe they calculated the required oxygen, but forgot about the CO2. Without a CO2-scrubber, build-up of that gas will kill before the lack of oxygen.
 * Maybe they didn't take increased metabolism resulting from the low temperature into account.
 * Maybe they did their calculation once correctly, but gradually increased the number of people inside, lowering the safety margin.
 * Maybe the journey took a bit longer than normal. One lorry driver delivers the trailer in port, the ferry company puts it on the ferry (only the trailer; the lorry cabs normally don't make the crossing), they sail it to England and move the trailer off the ship and to a parking place, next the other lorry driver picks it up. Many things can go wrong, leading to a delay. A traffic jam, incorrect paperwork, a technical problem on the ferry, getting bumped to the next sailing, last-minute rerouting from the normal Dunkerque to the longer Zeebrugge route.
 * Sometimes the people being smuggled do something stupid. Like, it's cold, let's make a fire. Or smoke a cigarette. Carbon monoxide won't help.
 * The smugglers know it's dangerous, but they're content if on average 90% of the people make it across alive. They may do it by trial and error: just decrease the safety margin until people start dying. And a ventilation hole increases the chance of detection. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:01, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It looks as if the submariners who died in the Yellow Sea this week when their vessel was caught in their country's own trap for western submarines didn't have a CO2-scrubber.  The Royal Navy says their vessels have one but others don't.   The idea of not having ventilation to avoid detection didn't occur to me - many container lorries have ventilation ports which I assumed might be needed to keep the cargo in good condition.   One driver closed the port when leaving his vehicle while on a channel ferry one June day to go for refreshment.   It could not be opened from inside and nobody was around to hear the people inside.   When the ferry reached Folkestone, unusually the customs officer directed it into an inspection area (I think his suspicion was aroused because the documents showed the driver paid cash).   On opening the door the officer found all the passengers, hidden among vegetables, had perished, with the exception of two, one of whom was still feebly tapping on the door (where there was a limited amount of air) for help. 2A00:23C3:9900:9401:4979:A935:6AAD:7D60 (talk) 10:34, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the detailed explanation! It makes sense now. At the of the day, greed killed them all. 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:4C05:E648:56BA:A7EB (talk) 19:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)


 * There was a similar case in Texas -- see 2022 San Antonio migrant deaths. The driver apparently panicked and ran away, and didn't bother to open the compartment door. AnonMoos (talk) 20:12, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

What is the name of a cross pattée type cross with a circle inside in heraldry?
It's a more linear version of a cross pattée with a circle inside. That's the most specific I can be honestly, I've spent ages trying to find the name of it. Here's an example: — Panamitsu (talk) 09:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia article is apparently Cossack cross, but no special name is given for the version with central circle. I find it somewhat bizarre that some movement is claiming the legacy of what are mostly remembered as mobs who went on semi-random sprees of violence, looting, and thuggery against Jews, but maybe that's just me... AnonMoos (talk) 20:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * You could call it a cross paty nowy. —Tamfang (talk) 18:09, 9 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Well, the plain Cossack cross (shown in that article) appears to be simply a cross pattée, but plenty of the Ukrainian examples - like the one above - appear to be overlaid by (in heraldic terms) a roundel. For medals, this might be described as a circular centre, or medallion, or boss - compare the Commonwealth Victoria Cross or Royal Red Cross. or the Prussian Military Merit Cross, or the Russian Cross of St. George   You could describe it as nowy or "nowed" (meaning "knotted") although I think that is usually a variation of an ordinary, such as in the arms of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Fall River.  There is the quadrate, which puts a square swelling around the centre of the cross instead of a circle, and our article describes that as "nowy quadrate".  Similar to the Canterbury cross.  Other combinations of a cross and a circle can create a sun cross or ringed cross or Celtic cross or Coptic cross.  It is not any of them, although some forms of high cross with solid central disc get close.   Which is to say, I agree with Tamfang that cross paty nowy might be clear enough.  Theramin (talk) 22:58, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Ethnic minorities in Poland
The Polish census of 2021 gives 473.3k Nieustalona for Identyfikacja narodowo-etniczna in Tablica 1. Ludność według najliczniejszych identyfikacji narodowo-etnicznych - wstępne wyniki NSP 2021 (source, see also this news article).

Who could they be? Silesians and Kashubians who couldn't identify as such in the 2021 census? The difference between 2021 and 2011 is: 846,700+232,500-585,700-176,900 = ~300k missing Silesians + Kashubians (hypothetically). If so, there are still about 200k unexplained "Nieustalona". I wonder whether many of them could be, for instance Armenians in Poland:
 * Various sources mention 40,000-45,000 Armenians living in Poland. This number not only includes the descendants of Armenians who lived for centuries in Poland, but also Armenians who arrived in the country in the past 20-25 years. ArmenPress
 * There are currently several thousand Armenian immigrants living in Poland. The Armenian organisations which are active here today work to help them find employment and housing. They also organise schooling in the Armenian language. Culture.pl

Do we have better data/sources on this? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 10:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Actually the final results only give 76k inna and Nieustalona so my question might be irrelevant... a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 10:44, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Slavery in Iraq
When was slavery abolished in Iraq? I am referring to the old type of slavery, where humans were literary bought, sold and owned. I am aware that Iraq was only created in 1920 and is new as a state, so the issue may be complicated. I know slavery was abolished in Iraq's neighboring countries in 1949 (Kuwait) and 1929 (Iran/Persia), so I was wondering when it was abolished in Iraq? Thanks. --Aciram (talk) 13:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)


 * 1924, according to Timeline of abolition of slavery and serfdom, but that's "citation needed". --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 14:42, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I have found a source now, but there seem to be very little information about it.--Aciram (talk) 17:57, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Help with identifying Kiev 1917 municipal councillors?
Hi. I'm working on Talk:1917_Kiev_City_Duma_election, to have a full list of the members of the 1917 Kiev City Duma. I've entered the list of 120 names from Russian newspaper source, and quite a few now have wikilinks. But there are number of issues to be adressed before the listing can be moved to article mainspace. Soman (talk) 17:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Any more wiki-links missing?
 * There are a number of issues with transliteration from Cyrillic, the usage of Russian names for Ukrainians. Also the Polish deputies on slots 76 and 78 are given arbitrary transliterated Russian names.
 * I can't make out well the name of deputy number 61 from the ref.
 * Is deputy number 96 Vasile Covali ? --


 * For number 61 I see "". Колпиков is an existing Russian surname. --Lambiam 07:56, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps Колпиков Никандр Петрович. --Lambiam 08:06, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks . Seems that's the guy. --Soman (talk) 10:07, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

When was slavery abolished in Syria?
When was slavery abolished in Syria? I am referring to the old type of slavery, where humans were legally bought, sold and owned. I am not speaking about the atrocities comitted by ISIS in the 21st-century, but rather when traditional slavery was abolished. Apparently, slavery were still occurring during the Armenian genocide in the early 20th-century. I realize it may be a complicated issue, since the modern state of Syria was founded in 1921, if I remember correctly. When was slavery abolished in Syria? Thanks.--Aciram (talk) 18:00, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * According to Timeline of abolition of slavery and serfdom Syria ratified the 1926 Slavery Convention in 1954, which requires states to suppress and punish slavery, but I can't find anything about specific laws in Syria regarding slavery. According to this article from 2013, there aren't actually any laws against slavery in Syria. - Lindert (talk) 19:25, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, indeed, but the ratification does not really say when slavery ended: after all, Sweden also ratificied the convention the same year, and by then slavery had been banned in Sweden for centuries. If there are no actual law against slavery in Syria, then there would at least be some sort of de facto end point when slaves stopped beoing sold openly in slave markets and kept legally as slaves, bought, owned and sold? Even if slavery was never formally banned, surely it must have ended anyway somehow? Because aside from ISIS in the 2010s, slavery does not excist in Syria. So when did it end, and why? --Aciram (talk) 20:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * You are assuming that slavery did end. In most countries, slavery was legally abolished at one date or another, but secret illegal slavery continued on a smaller scale, and continues today.
 * In the USA, the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution abolished slavery except for people incarcerated in prison, many of whom are compelled to work for derisorily small 'wages'. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.212.210.36 (talk) 20:54, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * That's why the questioner asked specifically about chattel slavery. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 21:03, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * That is correct: I am asking how long the legal slavery and slave trade openly went on: with slave markets, slave ownership recognized in legal courts, and so forth. --Aciram (talk) 23:00, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

(something) Capital of America
Is there a generic term for claims/descriptions that places are the "(something) Capital of America" (or other places), e.g. Rose Capital of America (Tyler, Texas), Salami Capital of America (San Francisco), Danish Capital of America (Solvang, California), Meat Goat Capital of America (Mills County, Texas)? I'm trying to work out whether a list of them would be encyclopaedic, but it's very difficult to establish that without knowing what the generic term is. Thryduulf (talk) 18:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * "Alleged" or "supposed" might be the word you're looking for. Johnbod (talk) 18:53, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * There's an incidence in scholarly literature of naming somewhere "the ' capital of '" (Kathmandu is the "enteric fever capital of the world", I've learnt, Democratic Republic of Congo the "rape capital of the world", and Liverpool the "slaving capital"). I'm not sure if there's a name for the phenomenon. Mostly it is self-claims that are not repeated elsewhere. It does sound like an interesting compilation of information, but probably wouldn't survive AfD, even impeccably sourced, without some kind of prior literature establishing that this is a thing that happens. Folly Mox (talk) 19:07, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Johnbod The veracity of the claim/name is a different matter. While it's easy to verify whether a claim has been made or not but would you even start verifying whether somewhere is the e.g. "Rose capital"? What does that even mean? Any list would note any disputes that exist regarding any of the claims, but in at least most cases there simply aren't any. Thryduulf (talk) 19:31, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Folly Mox Indeed, which is why I'm not planning to put any effort in to compiling a list until I've determined whether it'll pass LISTN, but it's tricky to find any literature without knowing the name of the thing I'm looking for! Thryduulf (talk) 19:31, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * This is the first treatment I've found of this idea. No nomenclature is discussed. It's just an unsourced bare list. Folly Mox (talk) 19:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, User:Thryduulf, I think this phenomenon may be a subset of the topic "town slogans" or "city slogans". I haven't done a thorough search, but I'm relatively certain notability can be pieced together from "city / town slogans are a thing" → "calling somewhere the something capital of somewhere larger is a common template for these slogans" → "here i made a list of some of them". Folly Mox (talk) 20:09, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I really don't like this sort of "piecing things together"; it's reminiscent of WP:SYNTH. It would possibly be acceptable in a "list" article. --Trovatore (talk) 00:27, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Thryduulf -- They're tourism promotion gimmicks. Castroville, California grows a lot of artichokes, so the local Chamber of Commerce gets the idea of declaring Castroville the "Artichoke capital of the world" (or the "Artichoke Center of the World", according to the Wikipedia article), and someone puts up a statue of a giant artichoke, and there's a yearly artichoke festival -- all in the hopes of attracting visitors... AnonMoos (talk) 20:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Note that they're not always promotional: they may be calling attention to something negative, as in the "rape capital" example above. --142.112.221.246 (talk) 04:46, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The ones which are official or semi-official city mottoes are. AnonMoos (talk) 22:51, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Meckling, South Dakota is the "Hay Capital of the Universe", which implies a great deal of withheld secret knowledge. Folly Mox (talk) 23:25, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

For the phrase itself--snowclones? (Or alternatively cliches?) 2600:1012:B18D:5AF3:4003:84C9:F8E4:E757 (talk) 23:39, 7 October 2023 (UTC)


 * I suppose they are specific types of snowclones, although that term significantly postdates this phenomenon. Some might be cliches, but I'm not certain you could accurately describe all of them as such. Thryduulf (talk) 08:45, 9 October 2023 (UTC)


 * It occurred to me to look up this usage in the OED Online. I was not surprised to see that under capital, n. and adj. there are noun senses
 * 2.a. A capital town or city; esp. a town or city serving as the seat of government for a country, province, state, county, or other administrative area.
 * 2.b. In extended use. With modifying word or of. A pre-eminent centre for the specified activity, product, or industry.
 * In other words, the dictionary regards this usage as simply a particular extended sense of the word "capital", not requiring a special way of describing it.
 * By the way, the earliest example cited is from 1786 and reads "the commercial capital of the world". Other examples cited, up to one from 2004, include "the mining capital of Hungary", "capital of French oysterdom", "the culinary capital of the world", "The Convention Capital of America", "the capital of the meat industry", "the communications capital of the world", "the clubbing capital of the Med", and "the canoodling capital of Britain". Several of them have clearly been applied by writers simply wanting to describe a city, not those wanting to promote it.
 * (Third time I've tried to post this. The first time was reverted with no clear explanation, then reverted again when I unreverted it, but on looking at the diff instead of the intended new content, I now see that I accidentally pasted several chunks of text into other people's existing content in the thread. Apologies for the botched edit, but it didn't occur to me until I'd been reverted twice that I needed to examine the existing content that I hadn't intended to change.) --142.112.221.114 (talk) 06:30, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that 142. I should have specifically mentioned the garbled signature links in the initial revert. Folly Mox (talk) 07:57, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * That's all right, thanks for answering. --142.112.221.114 (talk) 08:07, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that 142. I should have specifically mentioned the garbled signature links in the initial revert. Folly Mox (talk) 07:57, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * That's all right, thanks for answering. --142.112.221.114 (talk) 08:07, 11 October 2023 (UTC)