Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 October 8

= October 8 =

Gaza 2023
i heard rumors that hamas (no idea where PIJ stands since they oppose hamas and tel aviv) has (allegedly) kidnapped a few israelis. Is there any number IFF true?37.252.80.255 (talk) 03:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It's war. They were rumours. That's probably the best you will get. HiLo48 (talk) 03:57, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * If reliable sources report this figure, you will likely find it mentioned at October 2023 Gaza−Israel conflict.  General Ization Talk  04:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It seems pretty clear at this point that Hamas has taken a significant number of prisoners/hostages and moved them to Gaza. Most sources are guessing dozens, but Hamas is gloating that the number is much higher. There were far more hostages who were either killed or rescued on Isaeli territory. As time goes by, the numbers should get more accurate. This war began only about 24 hours ago. Cullen328 (talk) 07:39, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * BBC What we know about Israeli hostages taken by Hamas (Published 7 hours ago}. Wikipedia is probably not the best place to find details of breaking news as we can only publish second-hand, but see October 2023 Gaza−Israel conflict {apologies, already linked above by my learned coleague); but there have already been 1,350 edits by 250 editors since the page was created yesterday. Alansplodge (talk) 10:02, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Ezekiel 16
What are historical reasons, if any, for lashing out in strong language against Jerusalem in entire Ezekiel 16, particularly from 16:20 onwards? The article is seemingly missing that info. The superficial impression suggests idolatry and untamed wealth, similar to later cleansing of the Temple. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 13:27, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * From the point of view of ancient Israelite monotheist prophets, there were only a few "good" kings of Judah, such as Hezekiah and Josiah. Many of the other kings and elites were considered by such prophets to be lukewarm at best on the issues of monotheism and social justice... AnonMoos (talk) 13:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Ezekiel was at the very end of the Kingdom of Judah — most of the prophecies are undated, but the first chapter dates from the fifth year of the exile of King Jehoiachin, which puts it at 592 BC if I remember the chronology correctly — by which point the kings and people had been rebelling against God rather consistently for many years. The last few kings had rebelled against God, as had Josiah's short-lived father Amon and long-lived grandfather Manasseh, and even under Hezekiah (his great-grandfather), many commoners and noblemen were quite rebellious, prompting severe condemnation from the prophet Micah.  (See this comment about Micah's reception; Ezekiel's contemporary Jeremiah made similar prophecies and aroused the kings' anger, but a popular miniature rebellion demanded that he be protected, as Micah had been.)  Now for references: the Protestants Keil and Delitzsch point out that the people were cocky in their false confidence, doing whatever they wanted because they thought God would blindly favour them.  I no longer have access to most of my favourite Christian commentaries on the Bible, thanks to changing jobs, but if you want information, I may be able to supply Jewish perspectives.  Nyttend (talk) 18:49, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Have you read much of the preceding chapters? C16 is pretty much in line with them, in being an explanation of why disaster is coming to the Jewish people, see Book_of_Ezekiel. The theme in 16 in traditional Jewish understanding is that the references to clothes etc is allegorical. The allegory is that G-d 'clothed' the Jewish people with the gift of the Torah, but they spurned it for idolatory and other prohibited practices. Try reading the commentary of Rashi, which can be toggle on/off at --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 12:49, 9 October 2023 (UTC)


 * If you are wondering about a specific chapter of of Ezekiel, have you even considered the prophets in general, and the history of the Bible? I have no hesitation in appending the following passage by Julius Wellhausen from his Prolegomena to the History of Israel (1883, trans. 1885), eg available on Gutenberg/Archive.org, (there are better versions avaiable if you search) in which he sets the matter straight in no uncertain terms. I feel you might profit from reading the whole book (in which he is only expounding and expanding the existing theories of others, which have essentially stood the test of time).

From Prolegomena, X.I.1:

In the ordinary parlance of the Hebrews torah always meant first, and chiefly the Priestly Torah. The prophets have notoriously no father (1 Samuel X. 12), their importance rests on the individuals; it is characteristic that only names and sketches of their lives have reached us. They do indeed, following the tendency of the times, draw together in corporations; but in doing so they really renounce their own distinctive characteristics: the representative men are always single, resting on nothing outside themselves. We have thus on the one side the tradition of a class, which suffices for the occasions of ordinary life, and on the other the inspiration of awakened individuals, stirred up by occasions which are more than ordinary.

After the spirit of the oldest men of God, Moses at the head of them, had been in a fashion laid to sleep in institutions, it sought and found in the prophets a new opening; the old fire burst out like a volcano through the strata which once, too, rose fluid from the deep, but now were fixed and dead.

The element in which the prophets live is the storm of the world's history, which sweeps away human institutions; in which the rubbish of past generations with the houses built on it begins to shake, and that foundation alone remains firm, which needs no support but itself. When the earth trembles and seems to be passing away, then they triumph because Jehovah alone is exalted. They do not preach on set texts; they speak out of the spirit which judges all things and itself is judged of no man. Where do they ever lean on any other authority than the truth of what they say; where do they rest on any other foundation than their own certainty?

It belongs to the notion of prophecy of true revelation, that Jehovah, overlooking all the media of ordinances and institutions, communicates Himself to the INDIVIDUAL, the called one, in whom that mysterious and irreducible rapport in which the deity stands with man clothes itself with energy. Apart from the prophet, in abstracto, there is no revelation; it lives in his divine-human ego. This gives rise to a synthesis of apparent contradictions: the subjective in the highest sense, which is exalted above all ordinances, is the truly objective, the divine. This it proves itself to be by the consent of the conscience of all, on which the prophets count, just as Jesus does in the Gospel of John, in spite of all their polemic against the traditional religion. They are not saying anything new: they are only proclaiming old truth.

While acting in the most creative way they feel entirely passive: the homo tantum et audacia, which may with perfect justice be applied to such men as Elijah, Amos, and Isaiah, is with them equivalent to deus tantum et servitus. But their creed is not to be found in any book.It is barbarism, in dealing with such a phenomenon, to distort its physiognomy by introducing the law.


 * Having got your head around the whole point of prophets, you might enjoy Harlotry and History: An Analysis of Ezekiel 16, a Ph.D. thesis. The first 38 pages of the Intro vv. boringly review the literature, as is required for this type of work; it gets better from p. 39. Ch. 1 minutely dissects the entire chapter in question, w/ extensive scholarly refs: and in Ch. 2 the author really gets going. Enjoy, I think that's the idea. BTW I chose my WP name before realising that my namesake (and it's not Dan, Zeke, or Izzy) is one of the major prophets, only so-called because more of their scribblings have been preserved. Woe unto the lot of you, and no mistake. MinorProphet (talk) 01:04, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks everyone. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 17:46, 10 October 2023 (UTC)