Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 September 2

= September 2 =

Anarchism
What caused anarchism to get less popular? (at least in America). Did states start to seem not so bad after seeing the relative successes of anarchism vs USSR? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:22, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * What's the basis of your premise that anarchism was ever "popular" in America? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:00, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It wasn't but more popular than it was before or since. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:03, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Who says so, besides you? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:35, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Anarchism had its 'golden age' during the early decades of the 20th century. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:45, 2 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Anarchists are better dreamers than doers. A successful movement requires compromise, organization, and leadership to actually get things done.
 * See also: History of anarchism, e.g. [Delo Truda] considered that a lack of organisation was a basic reason of why anarchism had failed [in USSR].
 * This might be of interest:
 * -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 04:19, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * How ironic, failed from too little organization. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * How ironic, failed from too little organization. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Around the turn of the 20th century, Italian anarchism helped give anarchism as a whole a bad name in the United States. See article Galleanisti for a list of some of their actions in the United States, culminating in the infamous 1920 Wall Street bombing, which almost certainly had an Italian anarchist connection.  In many people's eyes, they shot, stabbed, poisoned, and blew up stuff out of pure nihilism, and no other reason.  Also, the gusto with which Spanish anarchists killed priests, nuns, and bishops in Spain in the 1930s didn't do much for the reputation of anarchists in the United States... AnonMoos (talk) 05:00, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps Anarchism and public relations are uneasy bedfellows? Alansplodge (talk) 12:19, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm sure that Kropotkin style "mutual aid" would not have developed a strongly negative reputation on its own, but when it was subsumed under the broad umbrella of "anarchism", the negative PR generated by one group could taint the public's image of anarchist groups and trends as a whole. The stereotypical cartoon character of the short man with a large beard holding a spherical bomb with a lit fuse summed up many people's view of Italian anarchism by the time of the Wall Street bombing... AnonMoos (talk) 18:58, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * This killing was supposed to be propaganda and snowball into successful revolution right? Really tone deaf. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:41, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * For some historical context, see . It should be reealized (a) that the oppression of socialists and anarchists in these days was much more open and violent than today, as seen in several State-sponsored massacres of non-violent protests; and (b) that assassinations of specifically targeted oppressors were the order of the day, so to speak, and by no means reserved to anarchists. --Lambiam 17:48, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppressor according to who? Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt and FDR weren't perfect but are generally considered to be in the better presidents and assassins targeted them anyway. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Arguably, if one think a particular institution is inherently or usually 'bad', then an exceptional 'good' leader or figurehead of it merely whitewashes the 'bad' thing and delays its abolition, so while personally 'good', they are helping to perpetuate long-term 'badness'.
 * Of course, different people also have radically different ideas of what is 'bad' and what is 'good'. As a separate issue, they also tend to confuse agreed-on 'good' ends with honestly held different ideas about means to get there. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.81.165 (talk) 09:25, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, Empress Elisabeth of Austria wasn't personally considered "oppressive" by anarchist Luigi Lucheni; he said that he just wanted to assassinate "any sovereign" and become "an immortal martyr of the anarchist movement". -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 20:38, 2 September 2023 (UTC) . . . Another irony: Sisi is much beloved to this day; who remembers Luigi Whats-his-name?
 * Yikes, these replies. The fact of it is that in America, like in many places, anarchism was pretty ruthlessly repressed. In the USA after Haymarket affair, in Paris after the Paris Commune, in the USSR after the Russian civil war, etc. In particular, the outcome of the Spanish Civil War had an impact, not to mention that the Nazis famously first came for the socialists and trade unionists (First they came ...). Furthermore, the end of monarchies across Europe, the success of individual work reform aims like the eight-hour day, the decline of the power of the institutional church, and the general increase in living standards after WWII all served to make the cause less urgent for many. -- asilvering (talk) 10:49, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps a surge of nationalism surrounding World War One might have a bit to do with the lack of interest in anti-nationalistic anarchism. Also, a general improvement in the economy by the mid-1920s probably should not be dismissed out of hand. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 22:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * In Ukraine, the Revolutionary Insurgent Army of Ukraine lost to the Red Army and the White Army.
 * In Spain, anarchosyndicalism had its heyday during the La Canadiense strike and the Spanish Revolution of 1936. However, the anarchistic militias were seen as ineffective by other Republican (Spanish Civil War)s. Anarchists and Troskyites were militarily repressed by Communists who had the backing of the Soviet Union. The Stalinist Communists became the party of law and order in the Republic. The Republic lost to the Nationalist (Spanish Civil War) side and all leftists were repressed. Some of the exiles fought in the French Resistance. During Francoism, internal opposition gathered around the Communist Party, which evolved to Eurocommunism. However after the Spanish transition to democracy, leftism mainly followed the Social-Democrat PSOE. Anarchism had very few political importance and some labor presence in some industries.
 * In modern times, it depends on how you define anarchism. Libertarianism seems to have a very vocal presence in the American Internet. The Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria has had some support of anti-terrorist US forces, hostility from anti-terrorist Turkish forces and a kind of detente from the Syrian government.
 * --Error (talk) 08:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Two "Age of Discovery" questions
A random thought last night piqued my curiosity:

1) I know there's some evidence that the Vikings crossed the Atlantic by stopping at Iceland and Greenland. When were the first ships constructed that would have been physically capable of conveying a crew across the Atlantic without stopping?  What technologies or societal capabilities were necessary to make this possible?

2) I know that it's strongly theorized that North America was initially populated from Asia via the Bering Strait (possibly via a land bridge during an ice age). I also know that at the time of Columbus' voyage across the Atlantic, there was some amount of trade and exchange of ideas between Europe and the "Far East", even if it was slow and arduous due to the overland routes.  Were any of the peoples of northeast Asia in the 15th C aware of the existence of the North American continent?  And were these peoples engaged at all in trade with Europe?  It seems like it would have been very possible (if not necessarily easy or fun due to the climate) for someone from that region to follow the coast around and sail across the Bering Strait and then return.

Thanks! -- Avocado (talk) 13:09, 2 September 2023 (UTC)


 * See article Knarr for the longest-range ship the Vikings had. I don't know whether it was technically capable of crossing the wider Atlantic at lower latitudes -- that would have involved leaving areas of Scandinavian culture far behind (as opposed to the Norway-Faroes-Iceland-Greenland-Vinland route).  The inhabitants of the Chukchi Peninsula always knew about the part of North America closest to them, but such knowledge didn't start becoming accessible to the Russian state until the mid-17th-century Dezhnev expedition. AnonMoos (talk) 15:24, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Was the lack of shared knowledge from the Chukchi Peninsula just due to sparse settlement and relative isolation in that period because of the geography? -- Avocado (talk) 18:12, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Did they think the New World mainland was freaking huge or much smaller than it was or part of the landmass they were on or would they have said they have no idea? Did they have any mythology of the unknown part? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:36, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) The early European explorers such as Bartolomeu Dias and Christopher Columbus used caravels, which were originally developed for offshore fishing and coastal cargo carrying and gradually enlarged to allow a larger load. By the time the Age of Discovery began, they could be used as they were already.
 * 2) The Chinese culture was adverse to exploration; by 1500, it had become a capital offence to build a seaworthy junk with more than two masts (see ). Japanese exploration was nonexistent. It is unlikely either civilization ventured close to or was even aware of the Bering Strait or St. Lawrence Island (first European visit by Vitus Bering in 1728). (If they knew about it, it was a successfully guarded secret.) --Lambiam 17:27, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) Oh, "caravel" is familiar from Civilization (series) -- where, ironically, they're generally limited to sailing within sight of land. That article led me to Iberian ship development, 1400–1600.  Neither goes super into depth about the way the technical developments added to the ships' capabilities, but I feel a little better informed now.
 * 2) And that's fascinating to learn about the limitations on exploration in China. What reasons existed for prohibiting such shipbuilding? -- Avocado (talk) 18:08, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * New emperor wanted to stop. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:04, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Evidently. But what reasons could he have had for wanting them to stop? -- Avocado (talk) 23:30, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * See China#Isolationism and the links from it. Broadly, The Chinese establishment, embodied in the Emperor, preferred stability over progress and (rightly) feared that foreign contacts and influences could destabilise China's social structure: since they were at the pinnacle of that structure, they did not want this. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.81.165 (talk) 05:03, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * 51, that anchor didn't resolve for me. Haijin is the most specific article we have on the phenomenon, and lands squarely in my weakest time period as a Chinese history person, so I have no further information from background knowledge. Folly Mox (talk) 18:35, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * That's weird! I know I read an article sub-section titled Isolationism, and I thought it was in the China article, but now I can't see it, or find a related article containing it. I'm baffled! {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.81.165 (talk) 19:02, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Polynesian peoples, although nowhere near the Atlantic, made very long sea voyages between distant islands and reached South America and (probably) returned about 700 CE. See Polynesian navigation and waka hourua.- gadfium 21:03, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Ooh, very cool. That information about navigational techniques is fascinating.  Do we know whether knowledge of the visits to South America been retained / passed down (or perhaps the voyages had been repeated) since 700 CE?  Also: How much were any of these groups in contact with Europeans in the 15th C? -- Avocado (talk) 03:06, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * See Pre-Columbian transoceanic contact theories. There's no retained knowledge, but there's genetic evidence of human contact, and the sweet potato is a food from the Americas widely distributed in Polynesia, though theories differ how it arrived there. European explorers passed through the Pacific in the early 16th century- gadfium 03:20, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Let's be careful not to attribute to culture and aversion to exploration when the actual reason was the arbitrary (?) decision of a single (?) man. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 22:52, 2 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Instead of doing the really important things I've been avoiding, I looked into this more, and the earliest form of the prohibition in China is carried in the 明太祖實錄, vol. 70. It was the decision of the Hongwu Emperor, but the report that spurred the decision was brought by Wu Zhen (zh:吳禎), who may have made the recommendation, although it's not recorded. It does seem pretty arbitrary, which is on-brand for Hongwu. Folly Mox (talk) 19:24, 3 September 2023 (UTC)


 * About the first question, Thor Heyerdahl, who may have Viking ancestors:
 * In 1969 and 1970, Heyerdahl built two boats from papyrus and attempted to cross the Atlantic Ocean from Morocco in Africa. Based on drawings and models from ancient Egypt, the first boat, named Ra (after the Egyptian Sun god), was constructed by boat builders from Lake Chad using papyrus reed obtained from Lake Tana in Ethiopia and launched into the Atlantic Ocean from the coast of Morocco. [...]
 * After a number of weeks, Ra took on water. The crew discovered that a key element of the Egyptian boatbuilding method had been neglected, a tether that acted like a spring to keep the stern high in the water while allowing for flexibility.[41] Water and storms eventually caused it to sag and break apart after sailing more than 6,400 km (4,000 miles). The crew was forced to abandon Ra, some hundred miles (160 km) before the Caribbean islands, and was saved by a yacht.
 * The following year, 1970, a similar vessel, Ra II, was built from Ethiopian papyrus by Bolivian citizens Demetrio, Juan and José Limachi of Lake Titicaca, and likewise set sail across the Atlantic from Morocco, this time with great success. The crew was mostly the same; though Djibrine had been replaced by Kei Ohara from Japan and Madani Ait Ouhanni from Morocco. The boat became lost and was the subject of a United Nations search and rescue mission. The search included international assistance including people as far afield as Loo-Chi Hu of New Zealand. The boat reached Barbados, thus demonstrating that mariners could have dealt with trans-Atlantic voyages by sailing with the Canary Current.[42] The Ra II is now in the Kon-Tiki Museum in Oslo, Norway.
 * You can question Heyerdahl's methods and he had the advantage of knowing that there was a western continent and currents leading to it.
 * There is also the Phoenician Ship Expedition:
 * A second sea voyage has also been completed. On 31 December 2019, the Phoenicia docked in the port of Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. For this final voyage, Beale set out to demonstrate that the Phoenicians could have crossed the Atlantic Ocean long before Christopher Columbus.[3] The journey was launched on 28 September 2019 in the commune of Carthage, Tunisia, site of the ancient city of Carthage,[4] and reached Santo Domingo before 31 December 2019.[5]
 * On the second question, I thought I have read about Japanese ships carried by storms to Spanish America, but I am not finding now anything from before 1800, and they required official assistance to go back to Japan.
 * --Error (talk) 09:22, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, those recreation expeditions are fascinating. And I suppose they also carried all their own supplies?  I wonder what navigational methods they used. -- Avocado (talk) 15:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Category:Replications of ancient voyages in case you haven't found it yet. Heyerdahl wrote books and made documentaries about his expeditions. They inspired most of the movement of voyage recreation. --Error (talk) 19:29, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I've always wondered why Heyerdahl used a small boat made of straw? Didn't he know that the Ancient Egyptians could build perfectly good wooden ships? Alansplodge (talk) 20:28, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * According to this page on the Kon-Tiki Museum site, he visited Easter Island and saw "depictions of reed boats with masts and sails", so he decided to try that. --142.112.221.184 (talk) 05:08, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Overkill to make a point? Kind of like those ads that obliterate camcorders with food blenders. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:39, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I was going to propose that maybe he considered using imported wood cheating, but Abydos boats says:
 * The wood of the Abydos boats was local Tamarix – tamarisk, salt cedar – not cedar from Lebanon which was used for Khufu’s Solar Barque and favored for shipbuilding in Egypt in later dynasties.[6]
 * --Error (talk) 23:48, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Might have been more of a case of trying to demonstrate that long distance navigation was possible with the technology and materials available to individuals or small groups rather than the entire kingdom. Folly Mox (talk) 23:51, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think they needed navigation methods. They knew basically nothing about the western continent that they were to reach, so they didn't have a target to navigate to.  – b_jonas 13:40, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The recreators? -- Avocado (talk) 01:19, 8 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Japanese ship(s) or boat(s) made it to somewhere around Puget Sound but it was a very unpleasant marathon in storm-damaged equipment. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:07, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Probably the most insane story along these lines is of Charlesfort, which actually happened during the age of discovery and wasn't a modern recreation attempt. Twenty-eight people with rudimentary tools and no shipyard were able to build a rudimentary boat which got most of them across the Atlantic. Once you know there's land on the other side of the ocean, it's a lot more practical to think of going there. Blythwood (talk) 18:02, 5 September 2023 (UTC)