Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 September 24

= September 24 =

Mao Anying's death
Hi. Mao Anying died on 1950-11-25. The Chinese high command, with the exception of Mao Zedong, was informed of the death on 1950-11-25.

Mao Zedong became aware of his son's death some time during 1951-01, according to the linked WP article.

When did the rest of the world first learn about Mao Anying's death?

(I am assuming that once one media outlet in a liberal democracy report the news, all the media outlets will also print it within hours.) Liberté2 (talk) 00:38, 24 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I did a quick search of newspapers.com via the Wikipedia Library, and found an article from February 1951 talking about him as if he were still alive, and an article from May 1951 talking about him in the past tense. I don't consider this search to have been thorough.
 * Folly Mox (talk) 01:10, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I do think that your assumption that all media outlets in 1951 will pick up on and republish each other's information is a bit overambitious. Folly Mox (talk) 01:13, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Folly Mox (talk) 01:10, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I do think that your assumption that all media outlets in 1951 will pick up on and republish each other's information is a bit overambitious. Folly Mox (talk) 01:13, 24 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Different national radio networks or shortwave stations in 1950 could sometimes pick up on each other's stories within hours if it was considered an important story. I'm not sure that news of the death of Mao's son would have been considered that important internationally. AnonMoos (talk) 02:57, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Even just the appropriate dates is already very good for me.
 * Like AnonMoos mentioned, it's not a terribly important story, certainly not front page news, so tracking down the first paper to print it might be very difficult. Liberté2 (talk) 04:10, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

What did the Nazis have against Fergus Anderson?
According to our articles Fergus Anderson, the motorcyclist, was in the Black Book, but neither article indicates why. Does anyone know? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 12:32, 24 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Checking the original (see ) he is listed as "Anderson, Fargus, 9.2.09 Vallington, Rennfahrer, Wohng.: London SW 1, Vlktoria-Street 36, RSHA IV E 4". Rennfahrer is 'racer', I think, so that doesn't tell us much. The criteria for inclusion on the list was never very clear though, and it seems to have been complied in a hurry. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:13, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

from here maybe? fiveby(zero) 16:00, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I cringe while linking to twitter, but from here, might be useful to try and figure out who B22/D57 Gaston Barbé/Gaston Dickwell/Karl Felsenthal was and why he was wanted by the Gestapo department for security and counterintelligence in Scandinavia. fiveby(zero) 13:47, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Can't find anything we would call a reliable source, but Barbé seems to have been a Belgian who sometimes raced under the name of Dickwell. Felsenthal seems to have been another motorcyclist, and Barbe/Dickwell, Anderson and Ted Mellors seem to have been associated, going around to the same races. A bit at rhis forum. DuncanHill (talk) 14:51, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * B22: Gaston Barbe (Alias Dickwell): Britischer Nachrichtenagent, involviert in Angelegenheit Kurt Felsenthal; vermuteter Aufenthaltsort: Rue De Hobliniere 64, Brussels; gesucht von Referat IVE4
 * C57: Charles Clark: Britischer Nachrichtenagent, involviert in Angelegenheit Kurt Felsenthal; Heimat: Lüttich; gesucht von Referat IVE4
 * D57: Gaston Dickwell (Alias Gaston Barbe, Karl Felsenthal) [gleiche Person wie B22]: Britischer Nachrichtenagent; aus Belgien; gesucht von Referat IVE4
 * M41: Joe Maisner: Britischer Nachrichtenagent, involviert in Angelegenheit Kurt Felsenthal; zuletzt gesehen in Brüssel; gesucht von Referat IVE4
 * M111: Taddy Mellors: Rennfahrer, involviert in Angelegenheit Kurt Felsenthal; gesucht von Referat IVE4
 * M169: Taddy Moore: Englischer Motorradrennfahrer, involviert in Angelegenheit Felsenthal; gesucht von Referat IVE4
 * But the Gestapo's Angelegenheit Felsenthal incident seems to be pretty obscure. fiveby(zero) 15:57, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * "Helene Felsenthal had two sons. The elder, Kurt (*1902), had a successful car dealership that was "Aryanized” in 1938. He survived the Third Reich, and could thus give a first-hand account of his arrest: When he was banned from his business premises after the "Aryanization,” he "lost his temper” and attacked an SA-man (he probably means a Gestapo agent). He was charged with assault and sentenced, but at the last minute he was able to flee to Belgium, with the help of an English friend who provided him with a forged passport."
 * That could be. D57 could stand for: "any person identified as Gaston Dickwell could be either Gaston Barbe, or Karl (or Kurt?) Felsenthal still using his escape identity".  --Askedonty (talk) 20:24, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find the version you've listed however. In the original (above checked) it is "Dickwell, an alias for Gaston Barbe", Felsenthal features as "Täterkreis Felsenthal", which has the same meaning as "Angelegenheit" except for the diplomatic understatement using the second term. --Askedonty (talk) 17:37, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Found it ,- in de:Sonderfahndungsliste_G.B.: Die hier erstellte Liste orientiert sich an einer Übersetzung der Originalliste durch das Imperial War Museum (IWM) ins Englische, die das IWM in digitalisierter Form ins Internet gestellt hat. Diese Übersetzung weist eine Vielzahl von Übertragungsfehlern, Übersetzungsfehlern und Verständnisproblemen auf. Bei der Rückübersetzung und Formatierung in eine Wikipedia-Liste treten natürlich weitere Fehler auf. Diese Probleme könnten großteils abgestellt werden, wenn in einem neuen Anlauf die Originalliste hierher übertragen würde: " The list created here is based on a translation of the original list into English by the Imperial War Museum (IWM), which the IWM has placed online in digital form. This translation contains a number of transcription errors, translation errors and comprehension problems. Of course, other errors occur when back-translating and formatting into a Wikipedia list. These problems could largely be remedied if the original list were transferred here in a new attempt." Thus Barbé is in fact listed on the same footing than any other British motorcyclist secret agent in relationship with "Felsenthal Angelegenheit" - except he as an alias comes twice (his Belgian nationality does not need to be mentioned). --Askedonty (talk) 18:25, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, i was lazy copy-and-pasting from de:Sonderfahndungsliste_G.B and should have been more careful. Briefly looked for the Stolperstein biography volumes to find a source for Kurt Felsenthal's account of his arrest and escape but no luck. fiveby(zero) 18:51, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Tiger Mask
In the real-life, who was the Nippon Television announcer for the Japan Pro-Wrestling Association matches of puroresu? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.239.131.42 (talk) 12:51, 24 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Have you checked Tiger Mask (professional wrestling)? User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:47, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * No, it's Ikki Kajiwara's manga and anime series. Can you find him? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.172.221 (talk) 17:50, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Greco-Shakespearian justice
What's the phrase I'm thinking of--like "natural justice"?--for the idea that everyone gets their due? So, in these plays--perhaps even up to present day noir!--those that have done most evil suffer the most but, even the good guy, if he's accidentally harmed someone in the course of doing good, must also pay, to a greater of lesser degree? SN54129 14:15, 24 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Today we would say "karma", but obviously Shakespeare and ancient Greeks did not use that word.  There's also poetic justice... AnonMoos (talk) 14:52, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * ”Just desserts”? DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 15:33, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * You may be thinking of Nemesis who distributes fortune in due proportion to each according to what was deserved particularly punishing hubris. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:47, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Obviously taking a looooooooong covfefe break. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:00, 25 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Yeeeas... thanks very much for your suggestions, . I think I thought there was an academic or scientific term for the idea, but yours all make sense, and I certainly haven't had any better ideas. Thanks again!  SN54129  18:56, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * All of "cosmic justice", "karmic justice" and "karmatic justice" have been used, but none is in standard use. --Lambiam 06:18, 25 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Although User:Serial Number 54129, the term "natural justice" has a specific meaning in England and some other common law systems. Alansplodge (talk) 10:21, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Just-world hypothesis (or just-world fallacy, for those that think its not actually true). Iapetus (talk) 09:32, 27 September 2023 (UTC)