Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 April 11

= April 11 =

French cartoon with redactions in English
I began an entry for the French parody Scènes de la vie privée et publique des animaux (1842) with caricatures by J. J. Grandville and read one commentary about the scene with ants which represents the British Empire. There are pictures of a box with "Opium" written and a sack with "I.I.G." - these two are blacked out in the English edition. "Opium" is obvious but what is "I.I.G."? Shyamal (talk) 06:10, 11 April 2024 (UTC) PS: Maybe "I.I.G." is just for "J.J.Grandville" as it also occurs here? Shyamal (talk) 07:19, 11 April 2024 (UTC)


 * The article on Grandville mentions that he also used "J. I. I. Grandville" corresponding precisely to his actual initials; given the variations listed, I think personally that it wouldn't be surprising if indeed I. I. G. is just another way of expressing his signature. GalacticShoe (talk) 07:28, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The signature (bottom right in both versions) has only two initials, which may be read as 'I's or 'J's, but presumably are intended to be read as 'I I Grandville' (rather than 'J I...'). -- Verbarson talkedits 12:24, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Would 'PORRET' (bottom left) be the engraver? -- Verbarson talkedits 12:30, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, Henri-Désiré Porret. --Lambiam 02:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The illustration is already legibly signed "", like the others in the book. I cannot readily think of a reason why Grandville would have chosen, if the letters represents his initials, to add an additional conspicuous "$\mathbb{IIG}$" to specifically this one. It seems, on the face of it, more likely to me that it signifies the content (impounded contraband?) of the thus-labeled sack, just like "$\mathbb{OPIUM}$" on the box. --Lambiam 15:24, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Au contraire; it appears to be a habit of Grandville to include his name or initials as part of the illustration.
 * Initials IIG on the back of a chair
 * Initials scrawled within the picture, though not on any object
 * Surname written on the face of the clock
 * Perhaps he had a fear of the his signature being trimmed from the edge of reproductions of the drawing, or even omitted by the engraver? -- Verbarson talkedits 15:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Wow, thanks, that settles it! Shyamal (talk) 10:17, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
 * This standard signature off to the side below shows that he did indeed on occasion use I. I. Grandville, so IIG is well within the scope of possible initials he may have used. GalacticShoe (talk) 19:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Similarly, in the illustration on the right, IIG is the listed signature on the bottom. I think this should confirm that the "IIG" shown in the original picture is indeed a signature. GalacticShoe (talk) 03:55, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I concede. --Lambiam 15:01, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Similarly Michael Whelan's paintings often incorporate his monogram (a character in blackletter style that is ambiguous between 'm' and 'w') as a belt buckle or the like. Perhaps both do it because a marginal signature is likely to be cropped out. —Tamfang (talk) 19:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Terence Cuneo's paintings often include a trademark mouse. MinorProphet (talk) 02:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Judaism question.
1. 1 way for a person to lose their Jewishness is to convert to Christianity. My question is, are there any other ways a person can lose their Jewishness? Such as being an outstanding criminal. What if someone was not Jewish, but married into a Jewish family, and later divorced, do they lose their Jewishness? What about someone who married into a Jewish family, then deliberately eat pork, do they lose their Jewishness? I wonder if there are any famous cases where Jewish leaders voted on someone's Jewishness (perhaps maybe hundreds of years ago) and probably wouldn't be common today.

2. I guess I asked this question last time but don't recall getting an answer but if anyone knew who pushed for the idea that if a Jew converts to Christianity, they are no longer a Jew, or even when? This kind of movement could have happened by the 300s or 400s? Thanks. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 18:04, 11 April 2024 (UTC).


 * First, if you have not already done so, please read our article: Who is a Jew?. It may address some of your questions. The short explanation is that there isn't one simple answer to who is and is not a Jew.  This is because "Jew" is both a religious designation and an ethno/cultural designation.  And there is a lot of debate among Jews as to who is and is not considered "Jewish". Blueboar (talk) 18:12, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Meh, that doesn't answer my question. My question is on exiting Judaism. From people that are already-established Jews. What you might be talking about are cases where Reform Jews consider someone a Jew but Orthodox Jews don't, but my question is still on exiting 1's status as a Jew. 170.76.231.166 (talk) 18:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC).


 * There's an old story about a non-practicing Jew walking with a hunchbacked individual. The first one says, "Did you know I used to be Jewish?" The second one says, "Did you know I used to be hunchbacked?" <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 18:48, 11 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Do read these anecdotes .  It took a few seconds for what happened in Charlie Taylor's answer (no. 5) to sink in. 2A00:23C4:79CD:B301:195B:FE87:8B0:5CE2 (talk) 08:17, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * But could they share the Smoky Bacon flavour (but guaranteed Vegan) crisps? -- Verbarson talkedits 12:03, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Your first assumption is already wrong. See Jews for Jesus, or the many second- or third generation Christians of jewish descent killed by the Nazis. As written by Blueboar, Jewishness is not just a religion. There are plenty of famous Jewish atheists, from Isaac Asimov to Marvin Minsky and Leon Trotsky. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 02:44, 13 April 2024 (UTC)


 * "Messianic Jews" are viewed by many religious Jews as nasty Christian prosyletizers who maintain a deceptive pretense of being Jews in order to undermine the religion of actual real Jews. There was a big stink connected to Yahoo in its early days (when it was mainly a web directory), when it briefly insisted on classifying Messianic Jews under Judaism, while a united front of just about every significant Jewish group insisted that not be done.  Such people would view lapsed or non-practicing ethnic Jews such as Asimov quite differently from proclaimed Messianic Jews. AnonMoos (talk) 21:05, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Of course. These are two different examples for people who are still considered Jewish, but don't follow Rabbinic Judaism as a religion. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:23, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Messianic Jews are NOT considered Jews by the great majority of Jews who take their religion seriously, as I explained above. AnonMoos (talk) 20:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, let's see if we can't agree. Messianic Judaism is, despite its name, a Christian sect (at least that's a near-consensus opinion). And yes, many adherents of that sect are not Jews. But the foundation was created by converted Jews, and many members are indeed converted Jews, despite the conversion. Their status as Jews or non-Jews does not hinge on them being adherents to Judaism or Evangelical Christianity, because it is (also) an ethnic category. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Jews who take their religion seriously are often willing to accept the ethnic Jewish status of non-practising or lapsed or even atheist Jews UNLESS THEY ADOPT A NON-JEWISH RELIGION, which is the much the same thing as renouncing any presumption to Jewish ethnic identity in their eyes. It may seem odd that many religious Jews would find it easier to accept a Jewish atheist than a Jewish Christian, but that's in fact the case.  Ask Tevye about the marriages of his second and third daughters (in the 1971 movie)... AnonMoos (talk) 14:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

, the above respondents make good points, but assuming you are asking about Judaism just as a religion, in the eyes of traditional Judaism, nothing makes a person "lose their Jewishness" as you put it, so your first assumption about converting to Christianity is incorrect. A Jew who murders someone while munching on a pork sausage with cheese on Yom Kippur is still a Jew, albeit an appalling one. Apostasy from Judaism is something that has happened countless times through the millennia - Judaism is a very old religion, with some pretty good source material - it was an old story before Christianity even began, see for example Ahab, who was a pretty loathsome character, even if you don't care about [any] religion, and probably lived in the 9th century BCE (see Kurkh Monoliths). But he was still a Jew. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 12:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Source here: Haderech, Pesach inspired 5784 (2024):

[page 9] "It is noteworthy that even among those who are distant from religious observance, almost everyone participates in religious services on these two nights.  Throughout the western world and LARSY TRA [capitals are my transcription of Hebrew letters], the polls reflect this reality.   This trend is not one limited [page 10] to our generation, it was true in the past also.   Historically, those who were forcibly baptised in Spain and acted like Christians joined their Jewish brethren on these two nights."

The writer says "On RDS [seder] night, we eat and drink; on RVPIK MVY (day of atonement) we fast." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23A8:4C31:5901:CE8:D91C:B1AF:F3C7 (talk) 16:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)