Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 April 30

= April 30 =

Volunteer (naval rank)
The Master's mate article says:


 * In 1824 two further grades were also introduced, consisting of master's assistants and second-class volunteers. These corresponded to midshipmen and first-class volunteers respectively in the executive line. These corresponded to midshipmen and first-class volunteers respectively in the executive line.

I tried to find *any* mention on-wiki regarding the "First Class Volunteer" and "Second Class Volunteer" ranks. The nearest I could come up with was Volunteer-per-order. But that article suggests that the rank was phased out in 1732, which is *long* before 1824.

Does anyone know more about the First-Class and Second-Class Volunteer ranks, or have a decent (ideally less than book-length) source with more information? I'd also be grateful for information about the "Master's Assistant" rank mentioned in the Master's Mate article, fwiw. -- Avocado (talk) 01:11, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * If anyone finds information that can be added to Master's mate, it should also be added to Passed midshipman, which mentions the first- and second-class volunteers. Nyttend (talk) 06:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)


 * There were the Royal Naval Coast Volunteers and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. -- AnonMoos (talk) 07:02, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Those articles say those orgs were instituted in 1853 and 1859, though. What would a first-class/second-class volunteer be between 1824 and 1853? -- Avocado (talk) 12:19, 30 April 2024 (UTC)


 * I have asked for assistance from the sages at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history. Alansplodge (talk) 14:50, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Ooh, good call -- thank you! -- Avocado (talk) 16:59, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I came across these volunteer ranks myself just a few days ago. I am still trying to understand them. However, if you search in en:s:A Naval Biographical Dictionary for "Fst.-Cl. Vol" and "Sec-Cl. Vol" you will find entries for many officers that started at these ranks. From Hill To Shore (talk) 17:04, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I found some sources on First Class Volunteers! Most of them even look reliable:
 * https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help/trafalgarancestors/glossary.htm: "This was the rating that replaced boy first class and was given to 'young gentlemen' training to become officers."
 * My reaction: "boy first class" looks like it'll be a difficult term to research online!
 * https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095548366: glossary entry for "captain's servant"
 * The name that used to be given to boys entering the Royal Navy at about the age of 12, before they became midshipmen. The custom of allowing post-captains to take such ‘servants’ into their ships derived from the older apprenticeship system. Such servants or followers did no menial work since they were aspiring officers. They were accommodated in the gunroom under the general supervision of the gunner before graduating to the midshipmen's mess in the cockpit, and thence on promotion to the lieutenants' wardroom. The name was changed in 1796 to volunteer, first class, boys of the second and third classes not aspiring to the rank of commissioned officers. Unlike King's Letter boys, who were nominated by the Admiralty, a captain's servant was a personal follower of a post-captain, taken on board to oblige relatives or friends.
 * https://repository.lsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3355&context=gradschool_theses: an entire master's thesis on the topic that I haven't yet dug into besides a keyword search and skimming a couple paras, but will probably be an excellent source and might help turn up further sources
 * https://academic.oup.com/histres/article/94/266/806/6375003?login=false on a tangentially related topic turns up this footnote:
 * On young gentlemen, see S. A. Cavell, Midshipmen and Quarterdeck Boys in the British Navy, 1771–1831 (Woodbridge, 2012); S. Cavell, ‘A social history of midshipmen and quarterdeck boys in the Royal Navy, 1761–1831’ (2 vols., unpublished University of Exeter Ph.D. thesis, 2010); and Wilson, Social History, ch. 1.
 * "Wilson, Social History" appears to refer to: E. Wilson, A Social History of British Naval Officers, 1775–1815 (Woodbridge, 2017)
 * I'll plan to read that thesis and start mining these for a little more info for our articles. And would of course appreciate any collaboration if others are also interested.
 * Do bear in mind that a masters thesis does not usually count as a reliable source, per WP:SCHOLARSHIP "Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence." Gog the Mild (talk) 18:23, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that warning! That does put a damper on things, I guess.
 * Does it make a difference if what I'm planning to add based on the thesis a) isn't particularly controversial, and b) is provided in the thesis as general background information (supported by other sources that I don't have direct access to) rather than something the thesis itself is attempting to prove? -- Avocado (talk) 20:50, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I may also be back with more questions later about Second Class Volunteers, and ... Third Class, which that Oxford source suggests also existed.
 * Maybe someone else can access the sources that aren't online?
 * Also ... opinions on where this info should live? Maybe expand Young gentlemen and add some cross-links with the other articles already mentioned? -- Avocado (talk) 21:34, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Bazar de la Charité fire again
I'd never heard of the Bazar de la Charité fire before seeing the thread above. In the article's list of victims, we see:"Marie du Quesne (1857–1897), Viscountess Bonneval, whose husband had been a member of the Chamber of Deputies of the Third French Republic from 1885 to 1889"What was her husband's name, and do we have an article about him? (Obviously he passes WP:POLITICIAN.) There's nothing at Bonneval, Bonneval (surname), Quesne, or Duquesne, and I couldn't find anything with a Google search. Nyttend (talk) 06:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Likely fr:Anatole-Fernand de Bonneval, see also the official data sheet. His main achievement in the chamber was to never step on the podium... --Wrongfilter (talk) 08:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * heck, I can do that. —Tamfang (talk) 23:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And while we're at it, here's the |/_recherche-api/visionneuse-infos/arko_default_61a0b234355b3/arko_fiche_619e4630db9b1/arko_default_61a0b2f85f05d/image/9831/88|0|88 marriage licence (the page on the right, signatures overleaf). --Wrongfilter (talk) 08:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * This looks to be the main source for the French article: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k83707p/f414.item Chuntuk (talk) 14:39, 30 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Marie was the daughter of Rear-Admiral Joseph Marie Lazare Duquesne (1804-1854) and a descendant of the more famous Admiral Abraham Duquesne (1610-1688). She had two children, a son Bernard and a daughter Aliette, the latter dying in the fire with her mother.
 * From Bulletin de la Société héraldique etʹgenéalogique de France: Volume 10 (1897), p. 287.
 * This genealogy page about Marie gives her date of birth as 30 May 1852, rather than 1857 quoted in our article, which would be three years after her father's death and rather a long pregnancy. It also gives her father's middle name as Balthazar instead of Marie Lazare - perhaps due to inscrutable French handwriting.
 * Alansplodge (talk) 15:11, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * "Ce grand bébé qu'on appelle le Français", making him hard to work properly the pen and ink --Askedonty (talk) 21:42, 30 April 2024 (UTC)