Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 February 10

= February 10 =

Has anyone depicted Tharbis?
I'm after a WP-useful depiction of Tharbis. You know, Michelangelo, Tissot or something like that. Not fan-art. Cecil B. DeMille is the closest I found, so I put that in the article, it's a very nice picture, but is there anything else that could be used? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:43, 10 February 2024 (UTC)


 * This webpage contains an illustration captioned "Illustration from a World Chronicle of Moses giving Tharbis the Forgetting Ring, c1400-1410. J. Paul Getty Museum". Here is info copied from the entry on the museum's website: "Ms. 33 fol. 67v: Moses Leaves Tabris, the King's Daughter, with a Magic Ring; about 1400–1410. Unknown artist/maker. Part of Weltchronik. Tempera colors, gold, silver paint, and ink." --Lambiam 15:54, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Beautiful! Thank you very much! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:02, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * And afaict it wasn't on Commons already. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:36, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't suppose there's a translation of the text somewhere? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:42, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I find it hard to read and could not find a transcription. If the book is six inches thick, I think its pages number in the thousands, so it is perhaps not surprising it has not been transcribed. --Lambiam 21:28, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I doubt that! This copy in the Bavarian State Library is 266 folios (532 "pages") & is fully online in a quite readable script. I'm sure there are modern printed texts around in German, and possibly a translation. Ah, yes - see "Anon, 1967. Rudolf von Ems: Weltchronik. Aus der Wernigeroder Handschrift herausgegeben von Gustav Ehrismann. 2nd ed., Dublin: Weidmann: Deutsche Texte des Mittelalters 20.", at Rudolf von Ems. Johnbod (talk) 21:51, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * This may be it: Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 00:11, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm having trouble actually finding the page in this scanned document which corresponds to the picture of the page. The fifth line on the left side has the word egypten, and I was not able to find any example in the scanned document where that word was preceded by one matching the picture. This may be a byproduct of OCR, but similar searches for other specific terms (e.g. lant man/lantman in the second line of the right side) did not bear any fruit either. GalacticShoe (talk) 04:49, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Google translate doesn't really help. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 00:14, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * "Tarbis" seems to first appear on p. 125 of this, but the story of Moses continues past p. 205. It's possible the image doesn't actually show an incident covered in the text. Johnbod (talk) 05:06, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Possible, but one would have assumed that the museum "title" Moses Leaves Tabris, the King's Daughter, with a Magic Ring; Moses Killing an Egyptian came from the text somehow. "Moses und die Königstochter von Sabaregia.", top of page 125, would seem to be about the Tarbis-story. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:43, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I think the story may be on page 126, around 9255. The text speaks of "vingerlin", which may be alt spelling of vingerring. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:54, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Although the term means "finger ring", it seems more likely to me that it corresponds morphologically to modern German Fingerling, with the basic meaning of "something one puts on a finger". --Lambiam 11:22, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Fingerring is pretty close too. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:35, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Currently in the process of attempting to transcribe this text. For future reference for anyone who wants to read this, I believe the kind of 'y'-looking things with the long left lines are actually 'h's. Also, good look distinguishing 'm', 'n', and 'u'. GalacticShoe (talk) 06:22, 11 February 2024 (UTC)


 * I haven't really looked at the text in the image, but I'm guessing that Minim (palaeography) may be relevant... AnonMoos (talk) 08:41, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * This is a basic attempt at transcription (EDIT: now with errors corrected based off of the Christherre-Chronik PDF):
 * There are almost certainly a ton of errors in here, so I will update as notes are made. GalacticShoe (talk) 09:35, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I tried to find a corresponding page to this in the book, but I haven't succeeded. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:47, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Lines 9644–5 resemble left-side lines 4–5 above, but the surrounding lines don't match. --Lambiam 10:52, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Yup. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:10, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Lines 9644–5 resemble left-side lines 4–5 above, but the surrounding lines don't match. --Lambiam 10:52, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Yup. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:10, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

I learn that there are a large number of extant copies of the Rudolf von Ems Weltchronik. The 1915 Gustav Ehrismann book only deals with this particular work, I suspect attempting to collate all known codexes (codices?) and fragments, listed at the 'Handschriftencensus.de' website here. The Getty Museum MS. 33 is number 44 in the list. Each folio is detailed in The J. Paul Getty Museum Journal, Volume 17, 1989 p. 116. But it appears that MS. 33 in the Getty Museum is a compilation of a number of completely different MSS. the 'Handschriftencensus' relevant entry says MS. 33 is a compilation (Weltchronikkompilation) of Rudolf von Ems' 'Weltchronik' ; the Christherre-Chronik; Jans von Wien's 'Weltchronik'; and de:Bruder Philipp 'Marienleben']. This explains why a searches above in Ehrismann for the text of MS. 33, fol. 67v has been unsuccessful, since it probably just isn't there. As noted, the index of names and places on p. 451 here only mentions her once, and her name (either Tabris or Tarbis) isn't mentioned on the (beautifully detailed) page which Lambiam cited earlier: However, Jans von Wien/der Enikel's Weltchronik is here, with the text version here, but I couldn't find any significant bits of the transcribed text either. At the end of the Getty Museum Journal article, Jörn-Uwe Günther is mentioned; the contents page of his book  Die illustrierten mittelhochdeutschen Weltchronikhandschriften in Verse here lists 20 pages on the Getty MS. 33 - who knows? Onwards and upwards, eh? MinorProphet (talk) 23:59, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
 * PS I suspect Günther (now a bookseller/art dealer, I think) is responsible for the titles of the illuminations. MinorProphet (talk) 01:13, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * This document appears to speak of different versions, and mentions Tarbis once in a comment. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:54, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * This is about Heinrich von München's Weltchronik which apparently uses all the texts already mentioned. It talks quite a lot about the Christherre-Chronik for which there is no published text. According to our article, some extracts were published in History as Literature: German World Chronicles of the Thirteenth Century in Verse. I have requested a copy from the author via ResearchGate in the hope it may contain the passage. MinorProphet (talk) 15:26, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Later addition: The MS of von München's Weltchronik is online here: MinorProphet (talk) 21:54, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Günther's 25-year career is outlined in Parchment and Gold which contains this paragraph:
 * "As legend has it, Jörn Günther’s passion for medieval books indeed dates much earlier than his first catalogues and initial private exhibitions. As an adolescent of only fourteen, his father, an eager collector of historic  materials, came home with a medieval manuscript. The moment the young Jörn Günther opened that book – which happened to be Rudolf von Ems’ Weltchronik and currently is Los Angeles, JPGM,  ms.  33;  pictured  right – he was immediately so taken by it that he simply knew he would make illuminated manuscripts his future." Maybe I should ask him... MinorProphet (talk) 16:06, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I would have to guess that he is probably the world's foremost expert in this one particular tome. If you do contact him, please do let us know what he says on the matter. GalacticShoe (talk) 02:08, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

What a busy day: I'm not sure how useful any of this is going to be. So: first off, I received a very prompt and friendly email from Graeme Dunphy, the author of History as Literature: German World Chronicles of the Thirteenth Century in Verse, as referred to just above. He kindly attached a copy of part of the text of Die Christherre-Chronik, pointing out the reference to Tarbas (Tharbis):

Our heroine is the daughter of the king of Sheba (Saba), called Meroe by Cambyses and in the Tharbis article. pp. 170–171:

12195 sundir wer mit vluchte sa ins kunigis veste von Saba, ich meine in sin houbitstat; di was mit richir wer besat. sie nante der kunic Kambises 12200 sint nach den ziten Meroes,

She appears on p. 172, line 12239, "Tarbas was di vrouwe genant." On the next page we get 12272 von kunste mangir achte und listliche wunder von astronomie kunder. daz liez er kiesin do dar an: der edile kunsteriche man machite in zwei vingerlin zwei cleine bilde guldin, di waren wunderlich gnuc.

In attempting to find out exactly where the story of Moses the astronomer and the rings comes from, I discover that the section Tharbis doesn't distinguish between what Josephus wrote in Antiquities of the Jews, Bk II, Ch. 10, and Walter Raleigh's cited account in History of the World, Bk. 2, Ch. III, Sect. IIII. "Of Moses his flying out of Aegypt..." No url given, which I found at. I hadn't realise how learned Raleigh was. Anyway, according to Raleigh, "So hath Commestor a prettie tale of Moses", which I learn is from the 12th-century Petrus Comestor's Historia scholastica. Amazingly, it's on Latin Wikisource, Vikifons (et origo?) [https://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Historia_Scholastica/Exodus#De_uxore_Moysi_Aethiopissa 'Cap. VI. De uxore Moysi Aethiopissa']. (BTW, anyone know how to make a WL to it like Jane Austen?). Raleigh is right, it is indeed a "prettie tale": and even my feeble Latin tells me that it's elegantly written, clear and concise. Sorry for quoting: "Dum autem redire voluisset, non acquievit uxor. Proinde Moyses tanquam vir peritus astrorum [skilled in the stars] duas imagines sculpsit in gemmis hujus efficaciae, ut altera memoriam, altera oblivionem conferret. Cumque paribus annulis eas inseruisset, alterum, scilicet oblivionis annulum, uxori praebuit [offered his wife the ring of forgetting]; alterum ipse tulit, ut sic pari amore, sic paribus annulis insignirentur. Coepit ergo mulier amoris viri oblivisci, et tandem libere in Aegyptum regressus est." ( Accio oblivionem!  )

So, Comestor was one source for the contemporary 12th-century Kaiserchronik according to a brief article on Brill (citing as text H.F. Massmann, "Buch der Könige alter und neuer Ee", in A. von Daniels, Land- und Lehenrechtbuch. Sächsisches Land- und Lehenrecht. Schwaben- und Sachsenspiegel, 1, 1863, xxiv-ccxxiv and as literature H.F. Massmann, Der keiser und der kunige buoch oder die sogenannte Kaiserchronik 3. 1854, 55-75 & 366-71). And according to our article, the Kaiserchronik was the basis for 13th-century Jans de Enikel's Christherre-Chronik: a refnote cites Stephan Müller's  Vom Annolied zur Kaiserchronik which discusses Massmann's highly partisan efforts: in Graeme Dunphy's review of it, "Müller cheekily calls early scholars like Massmann, whose work has been superseded yet whose influence lingers, the 'Untoten', the 'living dead'."

Anyway, [EDIT: some essence of] Comestor's Latin text finally resurfaces in Ehrismann's text of Rudolf von Ems Weltchronik pp. 125–6 as cited earlier: (sorry for extenstive quoting):

da besaz der wise wigant Moyses der ellens riche die Möre gewaltecliche. nu was in Sabareia der More künegis tohter da [Moorish king's daughter] 9226 besezzen, dü hiez Tarbis. [die heißt] dü gesach den degin wis Moysesin den werden man. . . . nu hater alse wisen sin das er wol mit den listen sin 9255 meistern kunde ein vingerlin mit solichir meisterschaft das ein wip mit sinir kraft vergezzen müste, als ih ez las, [vergessen müßte] swas ir allir liebeste was, das si das uz ir müte lie, 9261 so si das vingerlin gevie, und ez virgaz alse gar das sis nam niemer mere war und ez ir uz den sinnen kam. 9265 als si das vingerlin genam, si virgaz sin sa zehant. Which I suppose is all just background infomation unless anyone can find some matching text somehere. But how exactly does Getty MS. 33 relate to Rudolf von Ems' Weltchronik? Is the text of the Getty MS unique? Has the Getty MS been digitised and placed online? Well done with the transcription so far. I found this Mittelhochdeutsches Wörterbuch which cites the Christherre-Chronik in its bibliography: it may help, although the UI is a bit tricky,. MinorProphet (talk) 21:06, 14 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Interesting! Stepping away from scholarship for a moment, if one watches the short scene with Tharbis in The Ten Commandments, it's not impossible to consider this story the background of that scene. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:23, 14 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Excellent writeup, and much obliged. So far, I have been using this dictionary, and it has been very useful, but naturally it is missing a few words that I will have to search for in the Mittelhochdeutsches Wörterbuch. In addition to the above transcription, I have been attempting to convert the text into modern German, tweaking the transcription if anything doesn't align; at the same time, I don't actually speak a single bit of German, so my attempts may be completely nonsensical. In any case, if I ever come up with a full transcription that I feel is of at least some quality, I may post it. GalacticShoe (talk) 02:51, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I had lots of fun. I pretend to know some German: if you didn't feel too proprietorial about it, I'd be happy to assist with the lanuage mediation; or you could even take it to the Language Desk. MinorProphet (talk) 13:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * This is the word-for-word "translation" I currently have, based on my transcript above and the Christherre-Chronik PDF, although I don't suspect it's particularly accurate. [Square brackets] for words I didn't translate from my transcription above, and {curly brackets} for words I could only find in archaic form.
 * GalacticShoe (talk) 21:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
 * It appears that the exact spelling of some words in the Getty MS does differ from the Christherre-Chronik .pdf, because this 1998 edition containing a section of its verses was made from a very specific copy, differing from the Getty MS, and identified in its title as from Göttingen. I learned today that almost every manuscript is unique in some way - this is the result. A search for consistency (like resistance) is futile. I wonder whether '[yessen]' in l. 8 of the above translation of the lh text might be Jesse? It appears to start with a capital letter, anyway. MinorProphet (talk) 22:47, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
 * GalacticShoe (talk) 21:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
 * It appears that the exact spelling of some words in the Getty MS does differ from the Christherre-Chronik .pdf, because this 1998 edition containing a section of its verses was made from a very specific copy, differing from the Getty MS, and identified in its title as from Göttingen. I learned today that almost every manuscript is unique in some way - this is the result. A search for consistency (like resistance) is futile. I wonder whether '[yessen]' in l. 8 of the above translation of the lh text might be Jesse? It appears to start with a capital letter, anyway. MinorProphet (talk) 22:47, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

If anyone is interested in the sources of the text in Getty MS.33 fol. 67v, I had a long and informative chat earlier today with Graeme Dunphy, who was incredibly helpful in sorting out the sequence and sources of the all the chronicles involved here. As I was beginning to suspect, the text in our image from the Getty manuscript comes from a straightforward copy of large chunks of the Christherre-Chronik, as transcribed in. The reason as I understand it, is as follows:
 * At some point someone made an MS copy of an earlier MS of the Rudolf von Ems ('Rudolf') Weltchronik: but there was a lacuna in the particular source that he used, which left out quite a lot of the story of Moses and maybe more. But the copyist happened have to hand a copy of the Christherre-Chronik (which in places deals with the same subject matter as Rudolph, and simply interpolated the relevant sections to fill the lacuna in the copy of the Weltchronik. This version was then copied fairly exactly three more times, making a total of four variant MS sources which differ in this particular way from 'mainstream' Rudolph. The Getty MS. 33 is one of those four, (out of a total of 30 main sources): the other three are in New York, Vienna and somewhere I can't remember.

So we have been fastening our attention on one of just four linked MS, out of a total of thirty acknowledged sources for Rudolf: a comparative rarity itself in the field of rare mediaeval mansucripts.

Professor Dunphy explained, with various references, how this interpolated section (contrary to what I may have written earlier) was taken directly from the Latin prose of Comestor's Historia scholastica, and translated a couple of centuries later into rhyming couplets in MHG by the original compiler of the Christherre-Chronik. He said that Comestor would have been very familiar to the writer of the Christherre-Chronik (and to his readers) since it was one of the few Latin texts taught from an early age to the small minority of German boys who went to school, along with the Vulgate Bible. It is written in simple and plain language, free of contorted poetical word order.

As Graeme Dunphy explained further: All except the first two lines in Getty MS. 33, fol. 67v (our page), relate to the right-hand picture of Moses killing the overseer. He took me through the process of rendering a mere four lines or so into English, and it is seems not to be straightforward at all: medieval poetry may demand more effort to make sense of the word order. He has generously made a transcription of the whole of the text on fol. 67v, (which is closely but not exactly reproduced at ), and has also very kindly offered to translate it.

The story of Tharbis appears on the previous page or so, from lines 12257 to 12293. This passage has more info on the story of the rings: Apparently Aaron and Miriam, Moses' brother & sister, were very unhappy indeed about Moses and Tharbis [because God was displeased with him?]. It was Miriam who put pressure on Moses, forcing him to craft the rings, one of which would make Tharbis forget she ever loved Moses. He [thus freed from the bondage of her love which he will always remember], returned to the "Egypten lant" to free his people from their bondage under Pharaoh. Again, this will likely be in Comestor (perhaps in a quite close translation of the sense) as one of the direct sources of the Christherre-Chronik.

There may not be an English or modern German translation of any of the four variant MS sources, but there is an ongoing project to translate its source, Comestor's Historia Scholastica: but it would be an interesting challenge to render Comestor's Latin on p. 173 into English anyway.



MinorProphet (talk) 00:24, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

<!- With many thanks to all who have participated in this somewhat unlikely but wholly positive discussion. -> See also File:Ms. 33 (88.MP.70) Moses Leaves Tabris, Moses Killing an Egyptian.jpg on Commons. I feel we are getting closer to an answer to Gråbergs Gråa Sång's "I don't suppose there's a translation of the text somewhere?"


 * Latest update

Los Angeles, The J. Paul Getty-Museum, Ms. 33, fol. 67v.

Parallel transcription and translation into English. Abbreviations are expanded in square brackets.

MinorProphet (talk) 06:09, 19 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Yes, thanks to all participants, on and off WP. So it seems that 2 lines in the Tharbis "caption" actually referred to her. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:58, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Indeed: despite all the fuss, it's the story of of Tharbis that we are actually interested in. I'm working on Comestor's Latin to to compare it with the MHG and a possible translation of lines 12257–12293, in . MinorProphet (talk) 16:49, 19 February 2024 (UTC)