Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 January 4

= January 4 =

Citing a U.S. Gov't officials' letter, which was not sent and is a draft version.
I'm working on an article of my late father who died in 1972. Please feel free to review my article for a full understanding of my question and concern. The article: (User:Wdallen49/Bobbie R. Allen) contains citation #2 which is an eight page PDF document scanned from originals contained in my late fathers' files. This letter is obviously a DRAFT, thus never sent, but I believe a final version was sent by the author. I am not able to obtain a copy of the original nomination letter which was sent at this time. My question is, does Wikipedia allow citations of documents such as this? thanks very much for your assistance. Wdallen49 Wdallen49 (talk) 03:58, 4 January 2024 (UTC)


 * There are a couple related issues with a source like this. First: it is a primary historical document, so any interpretation of it in any context must be done with care and cross-checking; for WP, primary sources are very limited in usage except as part of a secondary citation, or in a plainly self-referential manner, stuff like that. WP:PRIMARY is the main policy, and WP:HISTRS is the essay with a section on primary sources in articles on historical topics (as this is).
 * The second issue, assuming this document is to be used in an appropriate manner in the article, is that the document upload has no provenance (provided documentation of origin or curation). Where is the original document it was scanned from, or electronic archive it is licensed from? Are the archives considered reliable sources for historical documents, or mixed up or cross-contaminated with a lot of junk? Are the archives accessible in theory or practice by some WP researcher or editor who wants to absolutely authenticate this stuff for a thesis? (WP:V) That kind of thing matters.
 * If it's just a document found in your father's papers or something, then it can't be used in the article as scanned on Commons. However, that doesn't mean you can't start asking around archivists and librarians to see if someone might have a copy in some official archive somewhere, or if not, if someone would be interested in verifying and archiving your copy. If it's important to the larger story, or missing elsewhere, then that's one possibility you might consider to pursue this further. SamuelRiv (talk) SamuelRiv (talk) 05:07, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

What was the geopolitical status of early Soviet-adjacent republics like Bukhara, Khorezm, Turkmen, and Uzbek?
I've been working on the territorial evolution of the Soviet Union. I've done a ton of preliminary work but I have a few questions that my own research hasn't helped too much yet.

First, the nature of a union republic. What I do know is:
 * 30 December 1922: The Soviet Union is formed by, among others, the Russian SFSR, which either includes or surrounds the Bukharan and Khorezm PSRs.
 * 20 October 1923: The Bukharan PSR becomes socialist and is redesignated the Bukharan SSR.
 * 19 September 1924: The Khorezm PSR become socialist and is redesignated the Khorezm SSR.
 * 27 October 1924: The Bukharan and Khorezm SSRs are dissolved/reorganized into the the Turkmen and Uzbek SSRs.
 * 13 May 1925: The Turkmen and Uzbek SSRs become union republics.

So, my questions are:
 * Were Bukhara and Khorezm actually part of the Soviet Union? Or were they technically independent, like Tuva? Or would they perhaps be considered territories, a la Kansas Territory in the U.S., considered part of the country but not fully part of the political structure?
 * Likewise, what about the Turkmen and Uzbek SSRs between their formation and being admitted to the union?

The info I have on that last bit comes from http://www.libussr.ru/doc_ussr/ussr_2469.htm which, when run through Google Translate, reads " The 3rd Congress of Soviets of the USSR welcomes with satisfaction the free expression of the will of the peoples of the Turkmen and Uzbek Socialist Soviet Republics on the entry into the USSR of the Turkmen and Uzbek Socialist Soviet Republics. " So there was definitely a national status change, but I'm trying to figure out to what degree.

So the tl;dr of this is, if you want it distilled: Between 27 October 1924 and 13 May 1925, what was the geopolitical status of the Turkmen and Uzbek SSRs, with relation to the Soviet Union? --Golbez (talk) 15:31, 4 January 2024 (UTC)


 * And if anyone knows a website or community that might have people who know, that would be great to know. Thanks! --Golbez (talk) 20:38, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Courtesy links: Bukharan People's Soviet Republic, Khorezm People's Soviet Republic, Turkmen Soviet Socialist Republic, Uzbek Soviet Socialist Republic, History of the Soviet Union. What I understand from reading our articles, the Bukharan People's Soviet Republic was originally independent but joined the USSR, renamed Bukharan SSR, on 19 September 1924. Likewise, the Khorezm People's Soviet Republic was renamed Khorezm SSR and joined the USSR on 20 October 1923. Both were shortlived, divided up by redrawn borders on 27 October 1924, resulting in the formation of the Turkmen SSR and Uzbek SSR. --Lambiam 21:39, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, I said exactly all that above. --Golbez (talk) 22:51, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Though, you're incorrect: No source says Khorezm joined the USSR on Oct 20 1923., or that Bukhara joined on Sept 19 1924. Just that they were renamed. Part of this is, I haven't been able to find any source who explains their status during that time. Were they part of the Soviet Union before becoming SSRs? --Golbez (talk) 22:53, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Obviously (IMO), the renaming was on the occasion of their accession to the Union. The lead of our article History of the Soviet Union states that the four original founding republics (the Russian SFSR, Ukrainian SSR, Byelorussian SSR and Transcaucasian SFSR) were joined in 1924 by the Bukharan People's Soviet Republic and Khorezm People's Soviet Republic . This cannot be quite correct if the Khorezm PSR ceased to exist nominally in 1923. (Disclaimer: I have not consulted sources outside of Wikipedia, and some of this information in our articles is not cited to sources.) --Lambiam 13:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * "Obviously (IMO), the renaming was on the occasion of their accession to the Union." Perhaps, but I can't source your opinion. And then there's still the question of the Turkmen and Uzbek status. --Golbez (talk) 14:58, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * There's probably no satisfying final answer to the question. The Emirate of Bukhara was already a Russian protectorate from 1873, so it was neither part of Russia nor fully independent of Russia. The Soviets' views on nationality, borders, and socialism in one country vs proletarian internationalism were also unsettled at this time. Here's one academic paper that may be useful: . Here's also a snippet from the Bukharan PSR constitution that declares it to be "a single, indivisible and independent state within the limits of its present state frontiers". --Amble (talk) 20:03, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Ooh, thank you. That academic paper was helpful - the idea that they initially acted with an independent foreign policy, and then, "Though Bukhara and Khwarazm were legally independent states in a treaty relationship with the USSR, they were made part of the process of the national-territorial delimitation of Central Asia that produced two (and eventually five) union republics," with the footnote of, "They were referred to as dogovornye respubliki, treaty republics, unlike the soiuznye respubliki, union republics, that were a part of the USSR," which might well be the answer to my Turkmen and Uzbek question as well. I'll need more research into that part, but this seems to settle for me that the Khorezm and Bukhara PSRs were nominally independent but wholly within the Soviet sphere, probably akin to Tuva (though less so, since the Soviets actually recognized Tuva).
 * So, since you found that bit of gold, got anything on the Turkmen/Uzbek question? :) --Golbez (talk) 23:21, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The only things I can find for the "SSR" stage are very emphatic on which classes hold power (workers and peasants in charge), and of course those classes are united regardless of borders. (For example ). Here's another article that might be interesting: --Amble (talk) 00:07, 6 January 2024 (UTC)