Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 June 26

= June 26 =

Does anyone know anything about this Indian (Buddhist?) story?
I once read an Indian story that went like this: "A courtesan was in love with a sadhu who wasn't interested and refused to even go visit her. Sometimes later she provoked the king's anger so he ordered that her ears, nose, hands and feet be cut off and that she be abandoned at a cremation ground. Only at that point did the sadhu go visit her to teach her about the doctrine etc." I think the story is Buddhist but I'm not sure. Does anyone know anything about such a story, specifically the name of the courtsan, and the source? 178.51.74.75 (talk) 18:32, 26 June 2024 (UTC)


 * (As a Buddhist) I have never come across this. It doesn't sound Buddhist, and sadhus are Hindu. Shantavira|feed me 08:09, 27 June 2024 (UTC)


 * As Shantavira says, it doesn't sound Buddhist, however, IIRC, many stories do change over time based on time, place, and culture, and I'm pretty sure the Buddha has been referred to as "sadhu" before. While I don't recognize this particular story, there are quite a few Buddhist folk tales that involve imagery related to the "cutting off" of appendages (I put "cutting off" in quotes for a reason, there's a lot of metaphors involved and often these stories are not intended to be taken literally).  Three stories come to mind right away because they are so popular: the story of Angulimala ("The Finger Necklace"); the story of Gutei ("Gutei's finger"); and the story of Huike ("Huike Offering His Arm to Bodhidharma").  There are likely many more of these stories, as the Buddhist literature and canon is too large for any one person to know it all.  In fact, I've read elsewhere that it is so large, that it is unlikely that 99% of Buddhists are familiar with it as a whole.  What's amazing about that, is that the extant literature probably represents less than 20%, given how much has been lost to time and conquerors.  The enormity of that idea is frankly astonishing.  Christians don't like to hear it, but there are too many coincidences between this imagery and that of Matthew 5:30 and the Sermon on the Mount to dismiss some kind of chain of inheritance of cultural ideas over a period of many centuries. Viriditas (talk) 23:09, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: the Nichiren Buddhists say "Sādhu also means upright, good, honorable, righteous, or correct, and also indicates a holy man or a sage. There's an interesting post on Stack Exchange that talks about the history of the word "sadhu" in Buddhism.  In Sri Lanka it is often used to refer to a Buddhist monk.  According to one person, "Budu Sadhu" is the term for "Lord Buddha" in Sri Lanka. Viriditas (talk) 23:20, 1 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Update: I believe I have identified the story, but the details are vastly different. What you describe sounds remarkably like the "Story of Sirimā the Courtesan". You will note the similarity of the courtesan being brought to the cremation ground and the role of the King.  The difference is that the courtesan's body is not amputated, but rather decomposed, which plays the same role as amputation in the story, particularly as the body falls apart over time.  Another difference is that the doctrine was not necessarily taught to the courtesan in the same way (although she was a follower of the Buddha in the story), but rather was taught to the monk, who went "crazy" obsessing over the courtesan out of his desire for her overwhelming beauty.  Her death showed that her beauty was fleeting, which is illustrated in the story as her dead body is being eaten by worms and undergoing putrefaction.  I believe it's the same story because the lesson is identical.  You initially said the courtesan was in love with the sadhu, but I think you got it backwards.  In this story, the sadhu is in love with the courtesan, which in fact, makes a lot more sense. Viriditas (talk) 23:44, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I can believe that the story I'm faintly remembering had points of similarities with other stories and that maybe there's a constellation of common themes that generate similar stories in Buddhist lore but not that I've misremembered what I read to such an extent that the story of Sirimā that you're recounting has somehow reassembled itself in my head to produce what I remember. But there are definitely common themes. Incidentally my use of the word sādhu is not meant to be taken technically. I'm not certain that's the terminology used in the source I've taken that story from and I obviously can't check: if I knew where I've read that story I'd have no reason to ask the question here. But thanks for the research. 178.51.74.75 (talk) 00:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, but there are many other similarities I didn’t mention. In your version of the story, the courtesan provoked the anger of the king; in the story of Sirima, she provokes the anger of the Buddha. Viriditas (talk) 00:35, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Update: here’s a more condensed version:
 * "Sirima. A courtesan of Rajagaha and younger sister of Jivaka. She was once employed by Uttara (Nandamata) to take her place with her husband (Sumana) while Uttara herself went away in order to indulge in acts of piety. During this time Sirima tried to injure Uttara, on account of a misunderstanding, but on realizing her error, she begged forgiveness both of Uttara, and, at the latters suggestion, of the Buddha. (The details of this incident are given Uttara Nandamata.) At the conclusion of a sermon preached by the Buddha in Uttaras house, Sirima became a sotapanna."
 * That helps a bit. Viriditas (talk) 01:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Three UK train crashes on one Sunday
My father was just telling me that he recalls a Sunday in the period 1963-1967, when there were three train crashes in the UK, on one day.

When was it and where were they? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:38, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I can't see anything at either List of rail accidents in the United Kingdom or List of accidents on British Rail. The latter does shew two crashes on 1 August 1963, but as well as being, like Mr Spiggott's legs, one too few, it was a Thursday not a Sunday. DuncanHill (talk) 20:59, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, one of those two crashes involved two trains while the other incident only involved one, so on 1 August 1963 you could say that three trains crashed. It's possible (if unlikely) that this is how it got framed on some headlines to sound more sensational. Matt Deres (talk) 14:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * (Belated reply) I've just searched the Railways Archive's "Accident Archive" for the period.  This shows, essentially, every accident and incident that has ever happened on the network, even those for which a report was not produced.  The following search query, which covers the whole of the 1960s, did not reveal any examples of 3 in one day, but you may be interested to browse it anyway: 1960–1969 search. Hassocks 5489 (Floreat Hova!)  11:29, 6 July 2024 (UTC)