Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 March 9

= March 9 =

George Eliot, Harriet Taylor, John Stuart Mill
Did George Eliot have much contact and friendship with Harriet Taylor and John Stuart Mill?Rich (talk) 01:52, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
 * A Google search revealed nothing obvious, but note that:
 * The Mills spent most of their married life in their Blackheath Park home, with just Haji and Helen Taylor for company. They had already largely withdrawn from society, perhaps due to the gossip that their relationship generated.
 * Alansplodge (talk) 17:19, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok. I thought, all being famous, and having similar sentiments, and George Eliot being scandalous herself, they would have certainly known of each other and felt comfortable communicating or even spending time together. Rich (talk) 22:10, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * In 1875, five years before her death, George Eliot wrote to a correspondent that "I never had any personal acquaintance with J. S. Mill – never saw him, to my knowledge, except in the House of Commons". In the six volumes of Mill's collected letters George Eliot isn't mentioned by name once.  That looks pretty conclusive. --Antiquary (talk) 17:22, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * yeah thanks to both you and Alansplodge.Rich (talk) 22:31, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Teatre Lliure/Mercat de les Flors
Question on something not covered at all in the English-language article on the Teatre Lliure (possibly the leading Catalan-language theater). Their current main stage, Teatre Fabià Puigserver, is in a building that was originally the Agriculture building of the 1929 Barcelona International Exposition (and has a sign over the main entrance saying "AGRICVLTURA"). There is another building next to it which currently has signs designating it (in Catalan) as "Mercat de les Flors. Centre de les Arts en Moviment" (i.e. "Flower Market. Center for Arts in Motion"). That latter building also looks the correct style and age to have been built for the Exposition.

The Spanish-language es:Teatre Lliure says, without clear citation, "En 1991, el alcalde de Barcelona Pasqual Maragall les ofreció ser parte del proyecto Ciutat del Teatre que abarcaba la rehabilitación del antiguo edificio del es:Mercado de las Flores, un edificio de nueva construcción para el es:Instituto del Teatro y el Palacio de la Agricultura de la Exposición Internacional de Barcelona de 1929 para el Lliure," which seems clear enough: the theater building is the former Palace of Architecture, and the Mercat de les Flors is a separate building, as is the new Institut del Teatre. All of this is easy to reconcile with what I can see on the ground.

The Catalan-language ca:Teatre Lliure refers to "l'antic Palau de l'Agricultura" and "rehabilitació en el mateix Palau de l'Agricultura" (again, lacking citations).

All of this would suggest that the former Palace of Agriculture, current Teatre Lliure, is an entirely different building than the Mercat de les Flors. However, all but three pictures at commons:Category:Mercat de les Flors appear to be of the Palace of Agriculture/Teatre Lliure; the Catalan-language description of the category says, "Antic Mercat de les Flors a Barcelona (Catalunya), ubicat en un dels edificis del Palau de l'Agricultura de l'Exposició Universal de 1929… actualment… una de les dues seus del Teatre Lliure" (the other location being the rehabilitated theater in Gràcia, their original location). commons:User:Estendartlluent, who wrote the gist of that, is long gone. The English and Spanish descriptions there look like they just trusted his word.

In short, I think Commons conflated and confounded the two buildings, and has very few images of the real Mercat de les Flors. But since everything else I'm dealing with is without citation, I was hoping someone who knows Barcelona well might sort this out more quickly than I would. In particular: Jmabel &#124; Talk 21:53, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) Was the Palace of Agriculture at some time part of the flower market (in which case Estendartlluent might have been less wrong than I am inclined to think)?
 * 2) Am I correct that the building now designated "Mercat de les Flors. Centre de les Arts en Moviment" also dates back to the Exposition?
 * 3) If I am correct about that, what role did it have during the Exposition?


 * The article Exposició Internacional de Barcelona on the Catalan Wikipedia states that the Palau de l'Agricultura "is currently known as 'Mercat de les Flors' and is occupied by the Ciutat del Teatre, which comprises the Institut del Teatre, the Teatre Lliure Foundation, the Mercat de les Flors Municipal Theater and the Teatre Fabià Puigserver". --Lambiam 07:14, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The article on the Ciutat del Teatre has this: "It brings together three large facilities: the Teatre del Mercat de les Flors in Plaça Margarida Xirgu; the Teatre Lliure in the old Palau de l'Agricultura which houses two halls: Fabià Puigserver and th Lliure Space as well as the Institut del Teatre, with the classrooms, two performance rooms, and the Centre de Documentació i Museu de les Arts Escèniques." This is confusing. The Teatre Lliure is found on Google maps here. Where is the main entrance with the text "AGRICVLTVRA" (photo) located? Not just the Commons, but several other sources, label images of the building housing the Teatre Lliure as "Mercat de les Flors", while other images of the Mercat de les Flors, including on Commons, seem to show a different building. It seems to be here, in a separate building, but it is possible that in 1929 it was part of a larger connected complex.  --Lambiam 08:03, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It may be useful for me to upload my photos first, so I can illustrate. I was hoping to get the information straight before uploading, but that may be a lost cause. I should get to that within 24 hours. (The Institut del Teatre being a modern building, and Spain lacking true commercial Freedom of Panorama, I can't upload pictures of that third building to Commons, but I'll put a couple on Flickr.) - Jmabel &#124; Talk 09:02, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * My best explanation of the situation is that the original Palace of Agriculture covered quite some area, and was either one large and complex building with several halls, or a building complex. This whole complex building, or building complex, became later known as "Mercat de les Flors". Parts of the complex building or building complex were demolished and new constructions were erected. The name "Mercat de les Flors" does not now refer to one specific building but to the whole area covered by the current complex of buildings that were once part of the Palace of Agriculture or newly built on its area. Floor plans of the 1929 Exposition might be helpful. My hypothesis that the name "Mercat de les Flors" does not refer to a building explains all things that appeared confusing. --Lambiam 15:41, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The complex shown in this photo of the Palacio de la Agricultura, also seen in slightly cropped form in an old postcard here, shows a contiguous building that is larger than any of the older buildings currently on the site. It seems to form three sides of a pentagon, while the two sides not visible because they are to the back of the camera appear to be still mostly extant, visible here. --Lambiam 16:14, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Interesting. That last looks like except for a small part at right, that might be a now entirely demolished wing. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 17:01, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * A (presumably historic) drawing of the Palace, seen in bird view, is found here. It shows one huge contiguous building, considerably more convoluted than a simple pentagon. The enclosed plaza is non-convex and has more than five sides (seven to eight depending on what one counts as a "side"). It may have enough detail to locate the remaining pieces of the Palace in this image. --Lambiam 17:06, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * That's not as useful as File:Expo1929-PlanolUbicacions.jpg. Compare the Palace of Agriculture there (Number 5, at lower left) to this from Google maps. Yes, that picture showed a now-demolished wing (except for the part at extreme right, which is where the present-day restaurant of the theater is). And then working from both maps: the building now known as "Mercat de les Flors. Centre de les Arts en Moviment" was always a separate building, and used to be more extensive, covering much of the ground now covered by the Institut de Teatre.
 * Yes, it was all part of the Palacio de Agricultura during the Exposition. I still have some doubts as to whether the whole thing was later known as the Mercat de les Flors, and I'd love to see a citation for that, but at least it is now making sense. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 17:16, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * According to the accompanying text here one of the preserved parts after a large part of the Palace was demolished became the Mercat de les Flors, I guess because it actually served as a flower market. It is possible, though, that this term is popularly used today to refer to the whole complex. For figuring out if this is indeed the case, we need to examine current usage by locals. --Lambiam 17:26, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, something like that. https://ajuntament.barcelona.cat/informaciourbanistica/cerca/ca/fitxa/3072/--/--/cp/ is official from the city of Barcelona, shows both buildings and gives both names. Also, in the text, it acknowledges that part of the complex has been destroyed and that the use of part of the complex for some years as a flower market resulted in the entire complex becoming known as the Mercat de les Flors.
 * So now I think I have what I need in order to do cleanup on Commons & Wikidata. I leave it to someone else to follow through on the various Wikipedias. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 17:49, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

@Lambiam, thank you very much for your help here, especially that older photo showing the now-demolished wing. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 19:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)