Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 August 8

Is this good French?
The Wikipedia article on copyright infringement links to a French one with an absurdly long title, so I made this phrase up myself. Is this how it should be written?

Ceci n'est pas une infraction de copyright.

This is not an infringment of copyright. —porg es (talk) 01:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It does not sound idiomatic to me (in French: Ceci n'est pas un idiotisme.), although it is used here (see the last sentence). Try violation du droit d'auteur. --Lambiam Talk 01:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * But be careful: copyright and author's rights (or moral rights) are different things. One can violate author's rights without violating copyright. - Nunh-huh 02:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know the context in which this will be used. Is it in a discussion of U.S. copyright? Our article on French copyright law states: 'Based on the "right of the author" (droit d'auteur) instead of on "copyright", its philosophy and terminology are different from those used in copyright law in common law jurisdictions.' --Lambiam Talk 07:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, to be honest I was really doing a (very) lame takeoff of Ceci n'est pas une pipe. I'm going to write Ceci n'est pas une infraction de copyright. in the Coca-Cola logo style, with the joke being that it's trademark infringement :P *teardrop* —porg es (talk) 22:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not an infringement of copyright, it's a depiction of an infringement of copyright ??? 惑乱 分からん 10:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Sentences beginning "Yes, no..."
It is very common for New Zealanders to begin conversational sentences with "Yes, no...". For example:

Statement: I love your new car! Response: Yes, no, I only picked it up at the weekend.

Does anyone know if this is a uniquely New Zealand habit? Or do speakers of English in other countries do the same? If you're able to cite any articles that would really help.

203.173.157.111 02:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC) Alison


 * I do it! I'm an NZer, however. I would say that the "yes" part is the key: rather than the intention being a literal "yes", it's more an indication that the speaker has heard and acknowledged the person they are responding to. I'm sure there's a better linguistic term for it, but phatic would be a good place to start. Z iggurat 02:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It's "Yeah, nah..." ;) —porg es (talk) 05:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, no, it's become extremely common across the Tasman in Australia too. I've read probably half a dozen newspaper articles over the past couple of years about the phenomenon, so linguists and others are certainly taking note of it.   What I've also noticed is people saying straight out "no" when they obviously mean a very definite "yes".  Such as:  Q. Are you happy with the new car you bought last month?  A.  No, it's really fantastic.  This never seems to confuse the questioner, who always knows what the answerer means.  This is a great example of how body language and voice tone play a far greater role in communication than the formal meanings of words. JackofOz 06:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The "No" in the "Are you happy? / No, I'm ecstatic!" exchange is called "metasyntactic negation" IIRC. --Kjoonlee 08:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * not called metasyntactic negation, but "metalinguistic negation." --Kjoonlee 08:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's unique to Antipodean English, though. I've been heard to start sentences "Yeah, no, ...", and the furthest south I've ever been in my life is Brownsville, Texas. User:Angr 08:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There you go, then. I wonder where it first started.  And, more importantly, why on Earth it started and why it has become so deeply ingrained in conversational idiom so apparently quickly. JackofOz 13:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)



I think the 'yeah' is more of an acknowledgement.

Is your new car running well? Yeah, nah it's pretty good, eh?

The nah seems to be slightly self-denigrating, if-you-know-what-I-mean. —porg es (talk) 22:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Vic Uni has noted it in some research into transcribing NZ-speak: And  it is also mentioned that "It generally means "I agree with you, that it isn't..." i.e. 'Australian's can't play rugby aye?' 'Yeah nah, they're USELESS'". —porg es (talk) 22:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That may be true in NZ-speak, but is definitely not generally true in Oz-speak. You should not be surprised to hear "How are you today?" being answered by "Yeah, no, I'm good". (ugh!) JackofOz 22:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone, it's interesting to hear others' opinions on this quirk. Too bad I'll have to abandon my theory about it being a New Zealand thing. 203.173.157.111 04:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC) Alison

There's a bit of a vogue for it in the UK, often with a "but" in between. This was heavily satirised by a popular Little Britain character, played by Matt Lucas. --Dweller 09:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It's very common in Dutch (but we say Ja nee, not "yes no" :p). It means the answer is not just "yes" or "no", but something slightly more complex. David 22:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I think "yeah, nah" is used as a vauge acknoledgement that dosen't specifically infer "Yes" or "no", like "Yeah, maybe". Body language is significant, which allows ideas to be clearly conveyed through vauge langauge. My tendancy to start sentences with an unrelated "no" is used to dismiss tangental conversation and stick to the point. Sometimes people will start with "no" even if nothing tangental has been said because tangental thought is detected in body language. Did "Yeah Nah" come from the television series "little Britan"?

Yeah... nah means everything and nothing at the same time as it completely explains the sentence following it but also contradicts itself to the point where it becomes irrelavant. For example "Yeah, nah Shane's always wrong" is effectively the same as saying "Shane's always wrong".

Amature at Cherokee Language
Please tell me if eji wahya is the proper wording for Mother Wolf. --69.23.201.248 03:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah nah i dunno ay bro hehehehehehe

Wedding poem/reading ideas
I'd appreciate a little help. I'm looking for a poem or passage suitable for a reading during a wedding. I've tried various combinations of search terms on Google but I keep getting the same core 10-15 readings. It's like all the sites are basically copies of one another. The wedding will be outdoors, so if there's a nature angle to it that would be good but not required. I'm not looking for anything too heavy on religion though. The wedding is also just your standard U.S. sort without any ties to any specific ethnic traditions or anything. So, any ideas? Dismas|(talk) 05:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Not knowing these people it's hard to give you advice. A poem with little artistic value, but not overly corny and neutral regarding religion and ethnicity is this one. --Lambiam Talk 06:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2013&version=31 is the classic Bible poetry. Brusselsshrek 11:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well you could try using Epithalamion as your search term; the poncy poetic term for a wedding poem although it may yield only heavy poems. I personally might choose Against Constancy] by John Wilmot or for the nature theme Rip by Alan Garner or [In the Nuptial Chamber http://pages.ripco.net/~mws/Poetry/101.html] by Thomas Hardy or Medlars and Sorb Apples (sorry can't find this online) by D. H. Lawrence but I don't get invited to a lot of weddings. MeltBanana  18:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

"Condoning an illegal act"
Hi,

I have always beleived that the word "Fortiture" meant "condoning of an illegal act". Is this correct? Please could you advise the correct term and / or spelling.

Thanks,

Alan (e-mail address deleted)


 * No synonym of condoning that I can think of resembles this, "forgiveness" coming the closest. There is "forfeiture", which sounds similar but has an entirely different meaning. --Lambiam Talk 06:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Nearly an antonym, in fact. - THE GREAT GAVINI  {T-C} 06:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably, Alan is referring to the word fortitude meaning a resilient character, able to withstand adversities. However, the word does not mean "condoning an illegal act".--Tachs 08:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Alternate or Alternative
Which is the correct form?

This is the Alternative route to the city

This is the Alternate route to the city


 * In this case, I would use alternate. Don't capitalize it, though, and use a period at the end of the sentence. —Bkell (talk) 06:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It depends on the context. "Alternate" suggests to me something that comes into play because the regular route is blocked, like a section of some bridge is being replaced. "Alternative" suggests a voluntary choice, as in the following dialogue: "--This route leads through the slums; is there an alternative? --Yes, here is an alternative route to the city.". --Lambiam Talk  06:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * "an alternative route" to me sounds the best, but if it must use the definite article then what Lambiam said. - THE GREAT GAVINI  {T-C} 06:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it depends where you're from. In the US, "alternate" is often used where speakers of British English would say "alternative".  In Australia, we would definitely refer to the "alternative route".  An "alternate route", to us, would sound like this time you take one way, then next time the other way, then next time the first way again, etc.  JackofOz 07:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ditto. - THE GREAT GAVINI  {T-C} 07:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Going by the grammar books, "alternate" means "passing back and forth" when used as a verb. As an adjective, it suggests "substitute". Hence, it is correct to use "an altenate route". The word "alternative" means "substitute" as well as "choice".--Tachs 08:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So "numbering pages on alternate sides" means that you can't number pages on the usual side and have to use a substitute side instead? Nope, I think "alternate" is quite happy meaning "passing back and forth" even when used as an adjective... ;) &mdash; Haeleth Talk 19:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The alternate route is the alternative to the original route.--Anchoress 08:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * In the US, I believe "the alternate route" means that there are two routes, a primary and a secondary (called the alternate). "An alternative route", on the other hand, means there are an unspecified number of routes and this is just one of them. StuRat 08:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You can only alternate (switch back and forth) between 2 things, whereas an alternative would be another possible choice (where they may or may not be just two choices, but there is certainly at least one other choice). Brusselsshrek 10:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * In my experience (as a Canadian), alternate is only used as a verb and adjective, and alternative is only used as a noun. The exceptions (alternative rock, alternative energy sources) involve alternatives to "the mainstream;" even then, alternate seems to be used if it sounds better (alternate lifestyle).
 * Thus, the alternate route would be the alternative.  Neon    Merlin   14:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Prescriptively speaking, it is incorrect to use "alternate" in this manner - it can only mean "switching back and forth." However, it's come to be accepted as a near-synonym of alternative as well (at least in the USA), so descriptivists probably would consider it ok.  I would advise going with "alternative," as it's correct in everyone's book. -Elmer Clark 23:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Japanese question
Is it true that Randori is based on the same root as Rambo? Many thanks. Arbitrary username 06:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably a coincidence. It's true that 乱取り is randori and 乱暴 is ran + bō, but I doubt Rambo is named after 乱暴. --Kjoonlee 08:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * According to Rambo, it seems based on the name Rambo apple, itself derived from a rare Swedish surname. 惑乱 分からん 08:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It could be a pun like "ram bough". -- DLL .. T 18:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the replies. Arbitrary username 17:01, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

short vowels
I am studying short vowels. Can you please tell me what short vowel patterns VCCV and VCV are? thank you


 * Vowel-Consonant-Consonant-Vowel and Vowel-Consonant-Vowel? In the latter the first vowel would usually be long, but in the former it wouldn't, eg. wicker vs. wider. -  THE GREAT GAVINI  {T-C} 07:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * So is this referring to writing patterns? I wondered, since the "i" in wider, in modern English is a diphtong. 惑乱 分からん 08:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it's more about phonotactics/syllable structure. Wicker and wider are probably not meant to be examples of VCCV and VCV. I think "Andy" and "ago" would be better examples. The &lt;o&gt; in ago is a diphtong too, but the glide part of "ago" is redundant in phonemic transcription, unlike the glide part of "wider." --Kjoonlee 09:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oops, ago isn't a good example either, because the is long. Hmmm... "Andy" and "Abba?" --Kjoonlee 09:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, English isn't a good example to use it with. German's probably a better bet: denken vs. denen, maybe? -  THE GREAT GAVINI  {T-C} 10:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The first e in denen is long. Wicker is actually a good example of CVCV, since there's only one [k] sound between the two vowels. Winter exemplifies CVCCV. User:Angr 15:27, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I know. And the e in denken is short, hence demonstrating VCCV and VCV.  Pity about the wicker thing though - lovely word, bad example... -  THE GREAT GAVINI  {T-C} 16:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

(nl) "kreeg ik" or "krijg ik"?
I am learning Dutch and am stuck...

I have this example from a text book: translated as:
 * Op den duur kreeg ik er genoeg van.
 * In the end, I had enough of it

I'm not sure where "kreeg" comes from.
 * Is it "krijgen" (to get)?
 * Is the correct inverted form "kreeg ik"?
 * How does the "van" relate?

Thanks! Brusselsshrek 10:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * My Dutch is bad, but I think the literal translation is something like "up (about) this through got I it enough of". What is "inverted form"? That the words change place in a dependent clause? Sorry if this doesn't help. 惑乱 分からん 11:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think by "inverted form" (s)he means the effects of V2 word order. If the sentence begins with an adverb (like op den duur), the verb follows the adverb and the subject follows the verb, rather than the verb following the subject. --Ptcamn 11:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Kreeg is the past tense of krijgen. The inverted form is correct (there's a phrase at the start telling you when you had enough.  If there was no op den duur, it'd be Ik kreeg...) Van simply means "of", er meaning "it". -  THE GREAT GAVINI  {T-C} 14:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Dank u wel Gavini! Thanks, that's just what I wanted to know. Brusselsshrek 15:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Den apparently was de in an archaic form based on the grammatical case, but what does duur mean? Length of time? Just curious. 惑乱 分からん 16:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, "duur" means something like "duration". "De duur van het gesprek was twee uur" means "The conversation took two hours". Evilbu 16:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * So 'in the end' doesn't seem such a good translation, although it covers the intention. 'After a while' is a more literal translation and it also refers to the passage of time in stead of a (predetermined) moment, as 'in the end' does. DirkvdM 04:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I need help with translation
I don't know if it is a good place to ask about it so if anybody knows better - please, tell me about it.

If I wrote an article and I need some English native speaker to check it up what am I to do?

Nemuri 15:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Just put Copyedit at the top and wait a few months. There are unfortunately already about a thousand articles in Category:Wikipedia articles needing copy edit. User:Angr 15:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Which article? Evilbu 16:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Article - Manggha


 * The funny thing is that, in Poland, there is a "Centre of Japanese Art and Technology" named "Manggha", but that it hasn't got much to do with manga. ;) 惑乱 分からん 22:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I went over it, but don't take off the copyedit tag until it's been seen by at least one more editor. I had questions about a couple of things, check the discussion page.--Anchoress 03:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

German Translation
How does one say "If you know him,. . ." in German? Reywas92 15:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It depends on who you're speaking to. Does "you" refer to one person or many people? Which side of the T-V distinction is the person or people you're speaking to on? User:Angr 16:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Wenn Sie ihn kennen... (polite); Wenn du ihn kennst... (informal); Wenn ihr ihn kennt... (plural), I think. - THE GREAT GAVINI  {T-C} 16:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep, and the first one goes for both formal and formal plural. -Elmer Clark 23:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Reywas92 15:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Hebrew phrase
What does the sentence "חידוש זה לא התפשט בעברית מטעמים מובנים למדי." translate to? A literal translation seems to result in "This invention didn't spread in Hebrew quite clearly recited (plural)", which doesn't entirely make sense. This is in the context of the invention of new Hebrew words (specifically about one word). Mo-Al 17:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It does not read well to me, but perhaps it is the Hebrew of well-spoken people. That's the only way I can make sens of it. — Gareth Hughes 22:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm no translator, but you could loosely translate it as "this novel idea didn't become widespread in Hebrew for quite obvious reasons". A "chidoosh" is literally something new, but it's about a different perspective on something. Does that make sense, given the context? --Dweller 10:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes. Actually, חידוש was referring to a new word in Hebrew, but the part I couldn't figure out was "מטעמים מובנים למדי". Thank you! Mo-Al 17:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * So you made me curious. What was the new word that didn't become widespread for "quite obvious reasons"? --18:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * להשריך (to tie someone's shoelaces). By the way, to be correct, shouldn't the sentence be "חידוש זה לא התפשט בעברית בגלל(or some other preposition) מטעמים מובנים למדי."? Mo-Al 04:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that בגלל is made obsolete by the מ prefix to טעמים מובנים למדי. I've noticed that Israelis don't tend to use בגלל very much.--Dweller 10:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, okay. Now I fully understand. Thanks! Mo-Al 16:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

What language is this website?
Just wondering what language this site is in: http://www.oelaxv.com/

--Yarnalgo 19:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * German. It's the Austrian Lacrosse Union. -- Arwel (talk) 20:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks. --Yarnalgo 20:03, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

10 Commandments
Do you know of a copy of the ancient Paleo-Hebrew script of the 10 commandments? Thank You


 * Feel free to transliterate the traditional depiction of the Commandments into the Phoenician alphabet. And please sign your comments with " --~ "  --π!  00:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd like to point out that we only have the word of Moses that God carved the Commandments, rather than Moses having carved them himself. I find it highly suspect that he was up on the mountain alone for 40 days before returning with the Commandments.  This seems to me to be about how long it might take a person (especially if that wasn't his trade) to carve out two stone tablets and engrave them with 10 Commandments.  On the other hand, God could have done it immediately, and with people watching, couldn't He ?  And back then, God didn't seem to mind showing Himself, as in the pillar of fire.  It was only after the advent of scientific testing that God apparently decided to no longer show Himself. StuRat 01:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, ye of little faith. :--) Moses in fact did re-carve the commandments, after he had flung the God-carved set down in rage at finding his people cavorting around the golden calf when he came down from the mountain.  But, of course, he supposedly just repeated the words God had supposedly given him.  And we have no proof that it was Moses' original testimony that now forms the relevant text of the Bible.  JackofOz 02:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * So now we even know Moses was capable of carving the commandments himself. I guess I must just be the suspicious type...now if there was an eleventh commandment "Thou shalt give all thy women, money, and worldly possession to Moses", that would have been the clincher, LOL. StuRat 17:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The 10 Commandments are largely about worshipping God, too. They include:


 * Thou shalt have no other gods before me.


 * Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


 * Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.


 * Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.


 * Then there is the bits about honoring one's parents, which is good advice, I suppose, but hardly rises to the level of what I would expect to be in a Commandment. And "not coveting thy neighbors ass" is good advice, too.


 * The only Commandments that are actual laws today are:


 * Thou shalt not kill (assuming they meant "commit murder").


 * Thou shalt not steal (unless the government does it).


 * Thou shalt not bear false witness (unless you're a lawyer, they are paid to do so).


 * There are some major oversights...no Commandments against rape and slavery, for example. I suppose Moses was in favor of those things. :-) StuRat 17:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Erm, see 613 commandments. You'll find rape covered by several commands under most systems of enumeration (try number 123 in Maimonides' list. Slavery was a part of Ancient Jewish civilisation; it was not prohibited, but heavily regulated. Our modern understanding of the perjorative nature of the term "slavery" makes it difficult to understand the Biblical concept. One insight into this issue is that slavery was not intended to be for life and could only become so by the wish of the slave (referred to in number 290). --Dweller 10:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * My point is that rape isn't important enough to make the "big 10" (while many seemingly silly things, like threats to punish people for what their great-grandparents did, do make the list). I also suspect that if a woman was forced into a marriage and then raped by her "husband", that would be OK at the time.  And slavery, which one would presume a just god would oppose, was just fine with whoever actually wrote the 10 Commandments. StuRat 20:44, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Judaism doesn't say that there's any practical difference between observing the 10 commandments and the remaining 603. The great-grandparents reference is about teaching hatred of God to your descendants. Women couldn't be forced into marriage. And slavery in the terms in which you understand the word, was not fine with whoever wrote the 10 Commandments. --Dweller 09:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)