Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 December 16

= December 16 =

Concurrent education
What is it? I read five definitions for "concurrent", none of them made sense. One of my friends is at University for "concurrent education". -- Zanimum 01:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd have to see the context to know for sure, but can take a guess. For students who lack skills in the local language, one approach is to first concentrate on teaching them the local language, then move on to general subjects. The alternative, which may be called "concurrent education", is to teach them the new language at the same time they are taught general subjects. StuRat 06:21, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the guess, but she's definitely fluent in English, and at an Anglo university. -- Zanimum 20:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * At this Queen's Universty page you will see the terms concurrent and consecutive being used to describe the situation where two courses are being taken together (concurrent), or one is being taken in sequence after the other (consecutive). It seems to be a term used mainly in Canada, as in the Wikipedia article Double degree: "In Canada, many teacher candidates study simultaneously for a Bachelor of Arts and a Bachelor of Education. These are known as "concurrent-education" programs." --Seejyb 14:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * That's actually the university she goes to. Thanks for the explaination! -- Zanimum 20:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I've never heard it used in an educational setting, but I hear it frequently in connection with criminal sentences. For example, if someone is found guilty of two charges (say, robbery and assault), there will be two sentences. Sometimes the sentences will run consecutively, or one after the other, while at other times they will run concurrently, or at the same time. — Michael J  16:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thankfully, I think her record's clear. -- Zanimum 20:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * At the junior college near me, high school students may take one or two courses while continuing to attend their regular classes at the high school. This is called concurrent enrollment. --Shuttlebug 18:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * That's unique. -- Zanimum 20:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Unknown language, unknown meaning.
I bought a cheap pocketwatch recently that has a knight on a horse cantering over a coat of arms. Around the knight are written two words: "Monoarcprocon Foepelctrai". The "saying" is separated into the two given words, with no spacing in between the letters in a word. Any idea what language it is and what it means? Niffleheim 02:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It looks strange. Could it be Celtic? 惑乱 分からん 02:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it's Latin, but of the sort used in inscriptions (very abbreviated and run together). Procon -> proconsul; Foe => foedus (league); Trai -> Trajan, etc (just possibilities). A picture of the inscription and arms might help. - Nunh-huh 02:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * On the web I found a (not very readable) image. The reading order is more likely "FOEPELCTRAI MONOARCPROCON". Not that this makes more sense to me. All together it does not have a Latin feel; surely foedus, root foeder-, would have been abbreviated "FOED", and the "AI" ending is un-Latin. "Mono-" is very much a Greek prefix. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lambiam (talk • contribs) 10:21, 16 December 2006 (UTC).
 * I don't have an answer but this might be a clue toward an answer for someone with antique books. Two different websites are selling antique watches by "Louis Jordan," a Frenchman, with that insciption (and no specific information on the subject at hand). The watch you have likely copies these antiques. Find an entry for him in a paper text, and maybe you find the origin.--Fuhghettaboutit 14:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * An idea? Could it be written in Greek alphabet, or something? =S 惑乱 分からん 17:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The alphabet is clearly the standard Latin alphabet. The "F", "L", "N", and "R" shapes are typically Latin. --Lambiam Talk  00:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm, it's not Romance or Germanic. It's likely not Slavic, Finnish or Hungarian. If it's a language, it's probably European. Until further info comes up, I place my guess on Celtic or Basque... 惑乱 分からん 14:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It's definitely not Celtic. —Angr 06:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The letter C is not used in Basque, so I think that's out too. The "words" look more like concatenated abbreviations to me. "Foepelctrai" in particular doesn't have the feel of any word I've ever come across. My hunch is that it's some sort of Masonic inscription, but I could be way off. JackofOz 04:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It is definitely not Basque (more properly Euskera), Finnish, or Hungarian—it is Indo-European of some sort, or at least based on IE roots. It is not Celtic or Germanic. It has Latin characteristics, and, as noted, is clearly using the Latin alphabet, not the Greek or Cyrillic ones... though that doesn't rule out Greek or Slavic languages. The style of the knight reminds me of eastern European heraldic representations, though the armor dates from near the end of the period of full plate usage, and reminds me more of German styles than any other. Can you make out the herladic device in the shield beneath him? That might be useful, if this is copied from an older original, and is not simply the device of the manufacturer—who you might consider contacting, as the most likely source to know the information. The "language"—if it truly is one—resembles a blend of Latin an Greek (as many scientific terms are), somewhat favoring the latter... this may well be a completely made-up term. One thing that might reward following up: this also bears some similarities to Baltic languages, in particular Lithuanian and Old Prussian. Some similarities... I don't think it's either of these, but it may have come from that area at a time when Latin use was still common, and represent a blend of Latinate terms and local influence. (The knight riding to the viewer's right, brandishing a sword, would at least partially suggest as well: it is very similar to Lithuania's heraldry, though the knight there is riding to the viewer's left, and also to Muscovy's, which had a knight of St. George brandising a mace (the current Moscow arms now show a lance instead).) --Vyasa Ozsvar 01:08, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

This was printed in a Turkish Newspaper
A photo caption began like this: Gorgu Taniklan...... Can you give any idea what they are saying? I am crious as my name is Gorgus, would there be any releationship?

Thank you for your assistance.

William Gorgus


 * Hi, William Gorgus. It might be Görgü tanıklarının meaning weaknesses in English. Sorry, this is original research (Turkish co-worker), and I can't link it to any reference. I hope someone else can. ---Sluzzelin 09:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Something was lost in translation. Görgü tanığı means "eye witness". The plural is görgü tanıkları. Görgü tanıklarının is the genitive case of the plural: "of (the) eye witnesses", which is possible given the caption fragment, but there is no specific reason to assume this or any other case. Görgü by itself means "(direct) experience", and tanık means "witness". --Lambiam Talk  09:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * lol, thanks. ---Sluzzelin 09:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

origin of the word yahoo.
I would like to know the origin of the word, Yahoo. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kulot77 (talk • contribs) 10:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC).
 * According to Wiktionary, yahoo was created by Jonathan Swift in Gulliver's Travels. See also the short article on Yahoo (literature). ---Sluzzelin 10:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Is it pronounced with the stress on the first or second syllable? --NorwegianBluetalk 10:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * First in noun, second in interjection --87.74.20.175 12:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. --NorwegianBluetalk 21:49, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * And when used as a noun, the "a" is pronounced to rhyme with "hay". User:Zoe|(talk) 06:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Not by anybody I have ever heard pronounce the word! --ColinFine 22:06, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * dictionary.com gives both pronunciations, with my preferred second. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The ease with which required information can be found.
Over at TenOfAllTrade's RD Thoughts I have written out my ideas on using RD questions as mini-polls on possible improvements of articles. One of the phrases I use is: "we can improve the format, "findability" and linking of existing knowledge". By "findability" is meant an object's quality of being able to be found - high = easy to find, low = difficult. While it is not an accepted word, the meaning in context is hopefully clear. What would be the alternatives? A single word? A phrase? Is the idea expressed in different words in guidelines somewhere? I ask because this quality would clearly be desirable for information in Wikipedia, e.g. used in a review of an article: "This article has all the information we could wish for, but the findability is too low for a feature article. More suitable links should be added." -Seejyb 14:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I suggest moving this to the talk page, since it isn't a question, but rather a commentary on how the Reference Desk and Wikipedia, in general, work. StuRat 15:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Isn't he/she/it asking for a better word or phrase that means "findability"?87.102.4.180 16:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * You may be right, I took those to be rhetorical questions. StuRat 17:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Build the Web! Build the web. I can't think of a better phrase than 'findabilty' but 'connect orphaned nodes', 'this article does not link to relevent pages' may be useful. There are also "Category:Orphaned articles" and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Lonelypages87.102.4.180 18:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * How about "improve incoming links"..87.102.4.180 18:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Would you adam and eve it findability meltBanana  23:25, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks meltB, I have left it as is. And yes, before I clicked that link I thought you were having me on! --Seejyb 14:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Is tehre a wikipedai spellign bot?
When I enter the word recieve in the search field on the left I get 8045 hits. A very few are redirects for article titles, but can somebody run a bot to fix all the other cases please, please? (That means that 3.8 % is wrong!) Thanks. JohJak2 16:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * And also, there are 1713 occasions (6.7 % wrong) of percieve. JohJak2 16:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * While I am at it: 1415 occasions (1.5 % wrong) of acheive. JohJak2 16:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * And on to: 3892 (1.1 % wrong) of beleive. JohJak2 16:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * And then: 51 (1.9 % wrong) of reciept. JohJak2 17:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC) fixed


 * Spell-checking bots are of limited usefulness and can creat havoc, e.g. with proper names and URLs, so they are discouraged. See Bot policy. And bear in mind that there are infinitely more possible spelling errors than there are words in the English language. Common spelling errors are searched for on a regular basis, but this requires human intervention.--Shantavira 20:50, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You might be interested in the typo department, participants in which work to correct common misspellings, which work can be undertaken with some celerity with the assistance of AutoWikiBrowser. Joe 03:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I did not realise that the problem was so big. Much work needs to be done. This AutoWikiBrowser is stated to work only with WinXP, alas for all te MacOSX-users. JohJak2 11:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It should also never be corrected in quotes (unless the quote can be checked and is found to have the correct spelling). In such cases it is helpful to add [sic] to save future editor's time and clue in the reader. I do the same thing when I run into "very unique" in a quote. Notinasnaid 08:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh and also only in articles, not talk pages. Imagine how silly this discussion would seem if a bot or a person later corrects the first "recieve"! The style in talk pages is to leave spelling mistakes in, at least in the English Wikipedia (cultural tolerance for correction varies). Notinasnaid 08:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Frere Jacques in Dutch and other languages
At Alternative lyrics to Frère Jacques and Translations of Frère Jacques we are collecting many translations of the song Frère Jacques in different languages. I have found a second version of the song Frère Jacques in Dutch at but I cannot transcribe it to get the written version. can anyone help me?


 * Hi. I'm the french teacher with foreign children who makes this collection video on our class site http://demonsaumonde.free.fr/frere.jacques/ and I have to say that the german version is not un official alternative version! It's a tzigane who lived in Deutschland and it's what she recorded! But soon, you will complete your own collection by a somali version and a picard version on the same page...

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.66.140.138 (talk) 14:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC).
 * also we have versions and partial versions in many other languages. Anyone who can help us would be most appreciated.--Filll 17:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi, I am a Fleming and thus a native speaker. A subtle difference between Flemish and the standard Dutch is the use of the "ge" form instead of the "je"form. Now this is the Flemish version . Here, on this page, you can find a "standard Dutch" version under "Vader Jacob" ("Hollands" could be described as standard Dutch). Now there is one thing I must point out : that girl Yousra seems to be singing neither of them. She sings "Broertje Jacob, broertje Jacob, slaap je nog, slaap je nog" and then something not very comprehensible. On top of that, the lyrics you are providing there
 * "Vader Jakob, Vader Jakob,
 * Slaapt gij nog? Slaapt gij nog?
 * Alle klokken luiden, Alle klokken luiden,
 * Bim bam bom, Bim bam bom."
 * do not match up with any of the two versions I just linked to, nor does it match up with what she is singing.Evilbu 00:05, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * there are a couple of translations over at de:Frère Jacques. --84.188.214.151 00:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The first version under "Dutch" on the Wikipedia page is the same as the text below "hollandais" at the French page. The version with "Slaapt gij nog?" has many more hits than any other version (including the one with "Slaap jij nog?"), also when restricted to pages from The Netherlands (domain .nl). I think this is a traditional version in somewhat old-fashioned Dutch. --Lambiam Talk  00:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

go in for sports
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Runglish#go_in_for_sports

Here I asked a question but nobody answered, so I repeat it here:

Is it really incorrect to say "to go in for sports" (meaning smth. like to do sports regularly) in English?

Is "to do sports" more preferrable?

Is it different in British and American English?

Are other uses appropriate? Like "to go in for teaching, dancing, singing".

Thanks. --Anthony Ivanoff 18:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I would interpret "go in for" as doing something with ambitions and high levels of intensity. 惑乱 分からん 19:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * My SOED says: "adopt as an object, pursuit, interest, style, or principle". I think it's less common in American English, but not unknown. —Keenan Pepper 19:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * To me it sounds like slightly-archaic British, but I don't know how it would sound to a British person. Dickens was already using it sarcastically in Hard Times:


 * [Jem's brother] said one day, "Jem, there's a good opening among the hard Fact fellows, and they want men. I wonder you don't go in for statistics." Jem, rather taken by the novelty of the idea, and very hard up for a change, was as ready to "go in" for statistics as for anything else. So, he went in. He coached himself up with a blue-book[...]


 * There he found Mr. James Harthouse looking out of window, in a state of mind so disconsolate, that he was already half-disposed to "go in" for something else.


 * AnonMoos 19:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm British and agree with AnonMoos: it's correct, but rather old-fashioned. "Do sports" is better, "play sports" better still. --Auximines 19:53, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Song in unknown language
When I was a kid, we sang a song in school which was in another language. I don't know why, but I have the feeling it might be Turkish. It might be a love song (there were separate girl's parts and boys parts). I'm wondering if anyone can give me any information (correct/complete lyrics, what language, what it means, etc) based on what I remember of the lyrics phonetically:
 * Ham-si de-coy-dem ta ta ta va-ya
 * Ham-si de-coy-dem ta ta ta va-ya
 * si-jer-ah de ki ki
 * ha ha ha ha ha ha
 * ha ha ha ha ha ha
 * ta ta ta va-ya

Thanks. Ingrid 19:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It is a Turkish türkü (folk song) from the Black Sea area. Here is (one version of) the lyrics:
 * Hamsi koydum tavaya
 * Başladı oynamaya
 * Kalktım baktım hamsi yok
 * Başladım ağlamaya
 * Translation:
 * I put the anchovies in the frying pan
 * They started to play
 * I got up and looked: no anchovies
 * I started to cry
 * (I can't place the line si-jer-ah de ki ki. This must be from a different version, but I don't recognize it as plausible Turkish.)
 * --Lambiam Talk 23:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I could easily be misremembering it (I was probably about 10 the last time I sang it). Also, it probably went through several copyings from the last time anyone who spoke Turkish saw it. Do you know any more of the lyrics? I tried a google search with the corrected lyrics, but all the pages were in Turkish, so I can't figure them out. Ingrid 00:32, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * With some Googling I found many versions, some of which have a second line that apparently corresponds to your second and third lines. That second line goes like this:
 * Sıçradı gitti havaya
 * which means: "They jumped and disappeared into the air". The various versions have large variations but all are rather short and seem to have one thing in common: there will be no fried anchovies for dinner. If I can find the time I may have more after the weekend. --Lambiam Talk  01:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Here are some results of my research. I don't want to write a dissertation on the topic, and most of what I further say is a simplification. The many versions of this Anchovies song can roughly be divided into two types: simple 4-line ones in which the anchovies start to play and then mysteriously disappear, with the cook crying at the end, and (often longer) ones in which the fish jump away but nevertheless their beauty is sung. What you sang as a child is of the second type, and so is the following version. Each line in the version below has several, sometimes quite different, variants, and most lines are completely absent in several versions. Out of the many versions I've stitched a "complete" version together, a bit in the manner of Dr. Frankenstein. (From the discarded parts I could make a few more.)


 * Hamsiyi koydum ta-ta-tavaya || || I put the anchovies in the frying pan
 * Sıçradı gitti ha-ha-havaya || || They jumped and disappeared into the air
 * Hamsinin gözü yeşil yeşil || || The anchovies' eyes are so yellow
 * Pulları parlak ışıl ışıl || || Their scales glisten so brightly
 * Geceleri uyur mışıl mışıl || || At night they sleep so tightly
 * Hamsiyi satsam bilmem ki kaça || || If I sell the anchovies, I wouldn’t even know for how much
 * Çünkü oynuyor çok güzel çaça  || || Because they play very nicely "chacha"
 * Heyyamola! Heyyamola! Hey! Hey! || || Heave ho! Heave ho! Heave! Heave!
 * }
 * I don't know how to translate the penultimate line, and in particular its last word. Çaça can be slang for "madam" (the proprietor of a whorehouse), but it can also mean on old hand at sea, a seasoned sailor, and there is çaça fish, which is sprat. Oynuyor is from the verb oynamak, which means "to play" as in "children like to play", but also "to play as an actor", and further "to skip", "to dance", which fits with an apparent tendency of the anchovies to dance and skip in the frying pan. (Some versions have çaçaça − cha-cha-cha, but I suspect that that is a corruption under the later influence of the name of the Latin-American dance.) --Lambiam Talk  21:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Hamsiyi satsam bilmem ki kaça || || If I sell the anchovies, I wouldn’t even know for how much
 * Çünkü oynuyor çok güzel çaça  || || Because they play very nicely "chacha"
 * Heyyamola! Heyyamola! Hey! Hey! || || Heave ho! Heave ho! Heave! Heave!
 * }
 * I don't know how to translate the penultimate line, and in particular its last word. Çaça can be slang for "madam" (the proprietor of a whorehouse), but it can also mean on old hand at sea, a seasoned sailor, and there is çaça fish, which is sprat. Oynuyor is from the verb oynamak, which means "to play" as in "children like to play", but also "to play as an actor", and further "to skip", "to dance", which fits with an apparent tendency of the anchovies to dance and skip in the frying pan. (Some versions have çaçaça − cha-cha-cha, but I suspect that that is a corruption under the later influence of the name of the Latin-American dance.) --Lambiam Talk  21:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Heyyamola! Heyyamola! Hey! Hey! || || Heave ho! Heave ho! Heave! Heave!
 * }
 * I don't know how to translate the penultimate line, and in particular its last word. Çaça can be slang for "madam" (the proprietor of a whorehouse), but it can also mean on old hand at sea, a seasoned sailor, and there is çaça fish, which is sprat. Oynuyor is from the verb oynamak, which means "to play" as in "children like to play", but also "to play as an actor", and further "to skip", "to dance", which fits with an apparent tendency of the anchovies to dance and skip in the frying pan. (Some versions have çaçaça − cha-cha-cha, but I suspect that that is a corruption under the later influence of the name of the Latin-American dance.) --Lambiam Talk  21:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know how to translate the penultimate line, and in particular its last word. Çaça can be slang for "madam" (the proprietor of a whorehouse), but it can also mean on old hand at sea, a seasoned sailor, and there is çaça fish, which is sprat. Oynuyor is from the verb oynamak, which means "to play" as in "children like to play", but also "to play as an actor", and further "to skip", "to dance", which fits with an apparent tendency of the anchovies to dance and skip in the frying pan. (Some versions have çaçaça − cha-cha-cha, but I suspect that that is a corruption under the later influence of the name of the Latin-American dance.) --Lambiam Talk  21:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)