Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 December 8

= December 8 =

Saying originator
Who said "Die gedunken sind frei"? Clarityfiend 01:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Never mind. I found it when I spelled it correctly. Clarityfiend 01:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

No longer an insult
I'm looking for a word or phrase. It is the process of reclaiming or modifying an insult so that it is no longer an insult. For example, 20 years ago it would be an insult to call somebody "gay" or "queer." Today the gay community embraces both of those terms, they have rehabilitated the terms to make them into positives. The black community has done this, to a certain extent within their own ranks for the "n-word." Rednecks, Goths, Geeks, Nerds, treehuggers all used to be insults, but are now embraced by their communities. I remember studying this phenomenon, but I can't remember what it is called. Does anybody have any idea?

Also, I'd love some better examples... I'd love to have some terms that 50+ years ago were insults, but today are accepted as positives.Balloonman 05:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Cultural appropriation of language. &mdash;Seqsea (talk) 05:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's the right term. Cultural appropriation is generally used when a group takes or adopts the habits/practices/beliefs of another group.  Usually, in context of a dominant group claiming as their own something traditionally identified with a minority group.  What I am looking for is where the language isn't appropriated from one group, but the meaning/understanding of a term is actually changed.  The word "Queer" would be highly offensive to a 1980 gay guy, but today we have "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy."  The term is no longer an insult, but worn by some with a sense of pride.Balloonman 05:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Found the term: Linguistic Reclamation--- "the appropriation of a pejorative epithet by its target(s)" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Balloonman (talk • contribs) 06:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC).


 * On a point of information, I have no idea about the position in the US, but in the UK. 'gay' and 'queer' still have pejorative overtones. For a time gay looked to be emerging from this; but it has tumbled back down, and can now refer to a whole host of negative and undesirable things, beyond homosexulaity.  The original meaning of gay, in the sense of being light-hearted, is now completely dead, though. Clio the Muse 06:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * "To reclaim", or more Germanically, "to take back". Back in the 80s, those were the words used for the sort of thing you're describing.  So, "linguistic reclamation" fits, but since it's not a language being reclaimed, "terminological reclamation" would be more precise. --Diderot 06:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think Semantic change might also have some info on this. Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 07:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep, could be amelioration. --Kjoonlee 07:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I have to point out an important historical difference between the terms "gay" and "queer", which have not undergone the same process. The term "queer" definitely did start out as a pejorative applied to homosexuals.  However, the term "gay" was adopted by homosexuals as a positive self-label.  Initially, it was part of an insider's code language that allowed gay people to communicate without outsiders understanding.  For example, someone might have said to his companion on the train, "You know, George is quite gay."  His companion would have understood, but others sitting nearby would not have been in on the secret.  Only after homophobes became familiar with this term was it turned against gay people pejoratively.  The history of the term "queer" is nearly the opposite.  In the 1970s, gay activists would have objected to the term "queer" and insisted on being called "gay", their preferred label.  (See our article Gay.)  It was only during the 1980s that radical gays began to adopt the formerly offensive term "queer" in a spirit of defiance, showing in effect that they were not afraid of,  and on the contrary, were ready to embrace the term.  This new attitude toward the term "queer" came of age with the founding of Queer Nation in 1990.  However, even today, there are gay people who are uncomfortable with the term "queer" because of its original and continuing use as a term of abuse.  Marco polo 14:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * A relatively early case is Jew. At times Hebrew was substituted for that word. Thus we have The Young Men's Hebrew Association as an equivalent to the Young Men's Christian Association. BTW, in Italian the word for Jew is Ebreo (sp??) I imagine the Jew cognate disappeared entirely out of stigma, although I don't know for sure. Anyone know for sure? mnewmanqc 14:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * There is an Italian form "giudio", but I think that it is considered offensive. Marco polo 18:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

How about "bugger" ? StuRat 17:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Ehhh, I don't think anyone ever "reclaimed" bugger. The sense just weakened... 惑乱 分からん 00:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I recall hearing that 'Protestant' was originally a term of derision, but I don't have a source for that sorry. Z iggurat 01:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Do it yourself
What is the origin of the phrase Do it yourself (DIY)? --Ppk01 15:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It means just that: do it yourself instead of hiring someone else (a plumber, builder, carpenter, etc) to do it for you.--Shantavira 15:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reply, but where did it come from? When was it first used? When did it enter public consciousness? --Ppk01 15:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The earliest OED citations are these:"[1616 T. DRAXE Bibliotheca Scholastica 163/1 If a man will haue his businesse well done, he must doe it himselfe. 1693 W. PENN Some Fruits of Solitude (ed. 2) 66 Have but little to do, and do it thy self. a1845 BARHAM Ingol. Leg. (1905) 288 If it's business of consequence, Do it yourself! 1925 D. BEARD (title) Do it yourself. A book of the big outdoors. 1949 Here & Now (N.Z.) Oct. 17/3 Husbands who have been brought up in the do-it-all-myself tradition of the previous generation.] 1952 Time 30 June 45/3 Do-it-yourself has brought similar gains, and market shifts, to other industries."The brackets around all but the last indicate that these are considered fortuitous and anterior to its real "entry into public consciousness" and the lexicon. By 1954, it's obviously on people's lips, with the New York Herald Tribune referring to "do-it-yourselfism" and the N.Y. Times referring to the "do-it-yourselfer."  So my answer would be, apparently 1952.  Wareh 16:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * And wow, that 1952 Time article is available online, so you can mine that for further insight. Wareh 16:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * That's great, thanks for your help! --Ppk01 17:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

OED is not reliable for finding earliest citations: it is only now being updated to employ modern search methods. I have uncovered this 1930 cite for "do-it-yourself", which you can verify through a search of Google's News-archives:
 * "In its Home Improvement Series, McGraw-Hill has five do-it-yourself manuals for each that should be of great value to the aver- age home owner."
 * Chronicle Telegram, Elyria, Ohio, May 5, 1930

racial or slang terms
Is "black mark" considered a racial term? For example "I have a black mark on my academic record". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.121.31.45 (talk) 18:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Not at all, according to the dictionary: here. It refers to a literal black marking next to a name on a list, like you would make with a writing instrument. -THB 18:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but I disagree with THB's response insofar as the idiomatic black mark is definitely pejorative, meaning a "stain or blot". Likewise the academic record here isn't necessarily an actual, physical list, but the aggregate of one's performance in studies at a particular institution. HOWEVER, I doubt the black here is racially motivated. So as for your question, it's idiomatic usage, not quite the same as slang. -- Deborahjay 07:40, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think I heard a hiphop song, once, with the chorus "Why is black always wack", or soemthing... However, I doubt the reasoning somewhat, since the word had the meaning of the color, before the meaning of the "race". Oh, well... 惑乱 分からん 12:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Second THB.martianlostinspace 19:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Query regarding language
Hi,

I want to know a specific term used to describe the same made by clapping two fingures, usually made by clapping Thumb and Middle fingure

Please let me know the answer

Thanks and Regards, Vivek. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.93.56.166 (talk) 22:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Snapping (one's fingers) as pictured here? Wareh 00:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)