Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 November 10

= November 10 =

Crest translation
i recently found my families crest and was wondering if you could translate "firmiius et pugnan" for me.

Thank you Steve


 * Firm in the struggle. Clio the Muse 02:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * How do you figure that? "Firm in the struggle" would be "firmus in pugna" in Latin. "firmiius et pugnan" is no language I recognize. May be completely f***ed-up Latin from someone who didn't speak it but wanted to create something that sounded Latinate.--88.73.38.217 08:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

You will find that with a lot of 'dog' Latin. My 'translation' is at best an approximation. The literal translation is 'enduringly and fight'. Clio the Muse 08:41, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but "enduringly and fight" would be "firme et pugna" (imperative singular) or "firme et pugnate" (imperative plural) in my knowledge of Latin. Neither of which makes any more sense than "enduringly and fight".--88.73.38.217 12:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the device is Firmius et pugnant: "They fight even more strongly", or Firmius et pugnam: "Even more strongly into the fight". --Lambiam Talk  14:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * That sounds more likely. AFAIK there are very few words in Latin ending in '-n' (a few little words like 'an', 'in' and 'en', and the old neuters in '-men' in the nom/acc sing) and no inflections that do so. Ergo, 'pugnan' must be corrupt. ColinFine 16:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Could it be Old French instead of Latin? User:Zoe|(talk) 04:28, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think so: -ius endings are unknown to Old French, and pugnan would make no sense either. BTW: All translations involving 'in' jar with the original, since there the second word is 'et' and not 'in' or 'en'. To Steve: Could you please make sure that you haven't maybe misread something or spaced something wrong in your above rendition? --84.190.250.143 10:45, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Check against delivery
What does it mean to say, "Check against delivery"?--Patchouli 03:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * You see this on prepared remarks distributed before a speech (such as the State of the Union address). I think it means the written version may not match what's actually said. -- Mwalcoff 03:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * So here deliver is used in the sense of delivering the speech, not postal delivery. Thanks.--Patchouli 03:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Danish names (Verner or Werner)
Can anyone help confirm whether a 19th-century Danish linguist, Karl Verner, should be spelt with a 'V' or a 'W' (Karl Werner). His first name is also seen as Carl as well. For the original discussion, including discussion of the Swewdish alphabet, see here (near the end). Thanks. Carcharoth 11:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It'd appear "V", from the info I could find. Where did you find the W spelling, it appears to be a typo? 惑乱 分からん 12:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * This swedish website. It doesn't help that Swedish doesn't distinguish between 'V' and 'W'. There was also an obscure professor called Karl Werner in Vienna around the same time. Search in Anton Günther. I think you are right. This seems to be a typo. Google is pretty clear on specific searches for "karl verner" and "verner's law". Carcharoth 12:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * As a footnote, Swedish distinguishes today between V and W, recently having disunified the two letters, but W is almost only found in names and in words of foreign origin, see Swedish alphabet. Many people still pronounce both letters as "v", though... 惑乱 分からん 12:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

modern slang
I found this slang phrase in Philip Roth's novel'The Human Stain'. Did James Ellroy make it famous when he addressed an audience by saying that his book( 'The Black Dahlia'?)would leave them 'reamed, steamed and dry-cleaned'?It seems to be used a lot.modern What does it mean exactly? CLM
 * It'd appear to mean something like shocked/stunned... 惑乱 分からん 14:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I think "reamed" here might have meant the slang sense of "received anal sex", it's rather vulgar, but it fits the context of "figuratively" having been severely "fucked up". 惑乱 分からん 14:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

lawful versus legal
The difference between the terms ‘lawful’ and ‘legal’ is challenging (me). I’ve heard that the law reflects the spirit, while legal represents the form. And that it is possible for something to be legal and still be unlawful. Can you “put it in plain English” for the thickheaded? Thanks heaps!


 * To me, they're synonyms, except that legal can be used to mean "having to do with the law", for example in legal aspects of the transaction (*lawful aspects doesn't make sense). Both words can be used to mean "obeying the law". —Keenan Pepper 17:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The DMCA is legal, but sending threatening letters to old grannies is unlawful. --Kjoonlee 17:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * This seems to go back to the original Greek and Latin terms for law: jus and lex. Lex, legis is the word from where we get legal and jus, jusis is the word from where we get justice.  Lex is the written law created by a civilization and Jus is the natural law that is innate among all living things.  This idea was conceived in ancient times and expanded upon during the age of enlightenment.  There are the natural laws of "All Men are Created Equal", one has a right to defend themselves etc.  It is possible for a Lex to contradict a Jus, for instance a legislature could legalize slavery, but this would still be against the natural law.  Emperor Justinian codified these nicely.

Ben Trent 20:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Selected Laws of Justinian (Internet Medieval Sourcebook)

language of origin unknown - translation requested
I have recently been tagged with a new nickname from a colleague who lives in Ontario, Canada. I have searched online for a translation as well as asked my many linguistically proficient friends and colleagues for their assistance in deciphering what it means. I think the language may either be Malaysian or it could possibly be a North American Native language.

the name I have been given is Tha’únhl St’áay Sdáng

please help me with the translation as I have a bet on with the person who tagged me...

Thank you, Shannon
 * Can't help with a translation but the language may be Haida based on Google hits for some of those words.--Fuhghettaboutit 02:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

ZOMG
What's the Z for in ZOMG? I've never been able to figure that out. "Zoinks" (shades of Scooby-Doo!)?  howch e  ng   {chat} 18:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It's a parody of someone trying to hit the Shift key but hitting the Z key instead. zoMG! --Wooty Woot? &#124; contribs 18:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * OIC. Kinda like "YOU GUYS ALL SUCK!11!!11!!!!1!!!" Thanks.  howch e  ng   {chat} 19:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * See also Pwn. Is there anything we don't have an article for? --ByeByeBaby 07:53, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * We even have a redirect (not an article) for zomg. Interesting what we say about it. Anchoress 07:58, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not only an "intentional mistype", it's also done because of the strange sound we imagine it makes. The "z" is popular, probably originating from "hackerz" and friends, and then to stuff like "lolz" and "lolzorz", and it was only a matter of time before it started moving to the front of words too. I wonder what the next evolution in IM speech will be. freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  12:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Norwegian pronunciation of "Kielland"
Can anyone tell me how Norwegian writer Alexander Kielland's surname is pronounced? (I guess I should have asked directly on a Norwegian wikipedian's talk page, but it seemed kind of intrusive.) Thanks! --194.145.161.227 18:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * In IPA; I think it's "", at least as a rough approximation... (Don't remember the IPA coding now, if someone else'd bother, I'd be grateful if it'd get fixed...) 惑乱 分からん 18:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm no good at IPA, but from the time when the rig named after him capsised, I seem to recall that it was pronounced "Shay-land" or "Shelland". -- Arwel (talk) 19:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It's a similar sound, but IPA ç has a slightly different sound than the ʃ representing "sh", and since I think ç and ʃ could cause minimal pairs in Norwegian, you should try learning the correct sound (the "ich-laut" is you're familiar with German). 惑乱 分からん 20:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * ...although some speakers merge the sounds, see Kjell. 惑乱 分からん 21:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks again, I'm glad to know both of you folks have got the same impression as I have ("shellan" and not "sheelan", to put it in plain English). Although, of course, I'd be even happier if a native Norwegian editor turned up and dispelled my last doubts about this. :) --194.145.161.227 20:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

suppression, repression and oppresion
can anyone explain what are the difference of the three words in terms of usage and connotations? --- John Doe —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 222.166.86.124 (talk • contribs) 19:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC).
 * I'm not totally sure, but I will say that "oppression" has a very negative connotation, like persecution, while "supression" is more like, minimizing the effects of something (like cough suppressant medication). "Repression" is the in-between, since it's still a negative occurance (rather than the largely neutral "supression"), but it is sort of the word that the repressors might use rather than the oppressed.  If that makes any sense... — K  e  akealani  19:51, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Suppress - hold down
 * Oppress - hold back
 * Repress - hold in - there is very little to distinguish then apart from customary usage. MeltBanana  20:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Etymologically, they all derive from compounds of the Latin verb premere (past participle pressus, meaning "press"): suppression is pressing down or under, repression is pressing back, and oppression is pressing against. Not sure how helpful that is. —Keenan Pepper 20:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

A repressed homosexual might suppress his natural urges, for fear of being oppressed. StuRat 20:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It's always about the homosexuals, isn't it Stu. --Dangherous 20:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I challenge you to come up with a single sentence, 13 words or less, that uses all three words correctly, without mentioning them. StuRat 21:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Many repressed minorities decide to suppress their unique traditions to avoid being oppressed. -Fsotrain09 02:35, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Well done ! StuRat 02:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The oppressive government attempted to suppress an overseas civil war by repressing its people's rights? Luigi30 (Ta&lambda;k) 16:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

French owls
Over at the French missing articles page we're having trouble distinguishing the difference between fr:Hibou; fr:Chouette; barn owl, owl and other similar terms. It seems that, contrary to what the majority of us have learned in educational establishments, there is not a simple one-to-one translation between owl and hibou or chouette. Any ideas? It may just be case of adding 2 interwiki links to one page, but us missing articles lot are a pedantic lot. --Dangherous 20:44, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * If it helps, in the French version of Harry Potter the owl is called a Hibou. --Cody.Pope 22:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * One-to-one translations between two words in two different languages very often fail, except if the languages are really close. David [[image:Da Vit in Chu Nôm.jpg|23px|Da Vit]] 22:59, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Supposedly a chouette with oreille is a hibou (translation: it's all about ears). MeltBanana  23:26, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Mixed accent
Having grown up in Australia with native Texan parents, spent my formative teenage years in Newfoundland, Canada, and among expats in Venezuela, and then moved back to Australia in time to finish high school, I have a strange accent that is not native to anywhere. It is a rhotic accent, so I almost always pronounce the R in words like "bored", but my vowels are somewhere between Australian and North American. So to North Americans (including my friends around the time I left Canada) I sound like an Australian, while to Australians I sound American or (more often) Canadian. I once heard Bill Bryson on the radio and seem to recall he had a similarly odd accent. Is there a Wikipedia article about this phenomenon? Or any other information you know of? I'd like to have a smart answer when people ask why I talk funny. --Grace 22:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I remember reading about a TV host (I think it was Alistair Cooke, but it might  have been David Frost),  who said he'd spent enough time in both countries that he now sounded British to Americans and vice versa &mdash; and described this as a "mid-Atlantic accent". Sadly,  Wikipedia's Mid-Atlantic article is only about the U.S.-specific meaning of the term, referring to the middle part the U.S. Atlantic coast. --Anonymous, 11-11, 00:00:00 UTC.


 * Although you're liable to read about Madonna's Mid-Atlantic accent (some people think she affects it). User:Zoe|(talk) 04:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I fixed the Mid-Atlantic redirect by making it a disambiguation page. If anyone knows of any other meanings for 'Mid-Atlantic' than 'English', 'Ridge' and 'States', then please add it. DirkvdM 06:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)