Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 November 14

= November 14 =

Japanese - two questions
1. On the subject of hanamichi (the large entrance/exit stage that goes into the audience in kabuki plays)- how would I say "the long hanamichi stage protrudes into the audience"?. Right now I've got はなみち　は　ながい (may need something here)　ぶたい (may need something here) かんきゃく　です. 2. Another question. I've got a conclusion. I want to say "overall, blah blah blah" or "in conclusion, blah blah blah". How would I do so? --Wooty Woot? &#124; contribs 00:32, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I haven't studied Japanese for a long time, but it seems you seriously need to check up on your Japanese grammar, I don't know any of the words, but if I am not mistaken, the syntax of the sentence should be "long - hanamichi - wa- audience - into (ni?) - protrude". Don't try to write complex sentence without having understood basic grammar... 惑乱 分からん 01:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm just writing a general outline of vocabulary. The grammar will come next. I'm thinking it'd be more like "long hanamichi ga (or maybe wa) audience de protrude desu ". So similar to what you put. However, all I need is the "protrude" verb (or root + suru) that makes sense in this context. --Wooty Woot? &#124; contribs 01:24, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * After some dictionary work, I came up with "tsuntasu" or "tsuntashimasu" (i assume this is the masu form of this verb, didn't say if it was class 1 or 2). Would something like: "nagai no hanamichi wa kanyaku de tsuntashimasu" work? --Wooty Woot? &#124; contribs 03:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe "Nagai hahamichi-wa kanyaku-no naka-ni 突き出されている" would do? I have no idea how the last bit should be pronounced. --Kjoonlee 05:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll just cut out the extraneous details (long, etc) and use かんきゃく　の　なか　で　はなみち　出張りま. Thanks for the help! --Wooty Woot? &#124; contribs 05:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Possibly, that depends on emphasis, but I still wonder whether it shouldn't be はなみち は かんきゃく　の　なか　で 出張りま (is it -rimasu? It doesn't sound like a verb...) Probably a native speaker is needed here... 惑乱 分からん 13:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's -masu, forgot the su :P. --Wooty Woot? &#124; contribs 16:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I asked a friend who lives in Japan, and he came up with 長い花道は観客席の中に張り出てある. Nagai hamamichiwa kankyakusekino nakani haridetearu. He says it still sounds a bit funny, though. --Kjoonlee 14:50, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * When romanized, I think the spacing "Nagai hamamichi wa kankyakuseki no naka ni haridete aru" is simpler to read... 惑乱 分からん 15:17, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'll try to remember that. :) I'm Korean so I tend to use Korean rules for postpositions. --Kjoonlee 15:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Works for me, even if it does sound funny. Thanks! --Wooty Woot? &#124; contribs 16:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * What? Maybe that might be, because you're not familiar with SOV grammar... 惑乱 分からん 17:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I was responding to the comment about a native Japanese speaker thinking the sentence "still sounds a bit funny, though", not that I think it sounds weird. Though the original English sentence is somewhat odd, in hindsight. I originally phrased it as "A long stage, the hanamichi, extends into the audience" which might have made more sense with my first attempt at translation. --Wooty Woot? &#124; contribs 01:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think you should attempt writing sub-clauses with so little knowledge... 惑乱 分からん 02:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 1. I would translate it as: 長い花道が観客席の中へ張り出している. Nagai hanamichi ga kankyakuseki no naka he haridashiteiru. 2. 結局 Kekkyoku or 結論として Ketsuron to shite. --Kusunose 04:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * What does the words in 2 stand for? Synonyms? To what? 惑乱 分からん 14:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 2 is the answer for the second question. That is, they mean "in conclusion". --Kusunose 15:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah! OK, nice! They're placed at the beginning of a sentence, right? 惑乱 分からん 15:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes. --Kusunose 03:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Pronounciation of lasso
My wife and I are having an argument about how to pronouce lasso. She is American and says it as it's spelt, while I'm from Britain and have always used it to rhyme with "you". Is this another UK/American thing or is it more complex? Catchpole 10:12, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary says "/læ'su:/, US also //", so it seems to be a UK/American thing. Webster gives both with no explanation. –Mysid ☎ 12:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Is there a generally agreed explanation of the anomalous pronunciation //? Is this another // case? --Lambiam Talk  08:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * What is "// case"? Hevesli 08:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * "lingerie" has a completely bogus pseudo-French pronunciation among many... AnonMoos 12:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know the answer to Lambiam's question, but I would mention the possibly parallel cases of vamoose and buckaroo --ColinFine 17:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Stalin quote :ru:en

 * Moved from Humanitites

My query is written in full on the Medal For the Victory Over Germany Talk page: I seek an English translation of two brief lines in Russian appearing with Stalin's portrait on this medal's obverse side: The English may well be canonical, something along the lines of "Our cause is just..." and the latter, a postwar adaptation of a line from a wartime speech. Thanks, Deborahjay 08:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * НАШЕ ДЕЛО ПРАВОЕ
 * МЫ ПОБЕДИЛИ


 * I ran it through a couple of online translators and got "Our business right" "We have won" so you are probably correct: "Our cause is just....we are victorious". -THB 09:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * As a native Russian speaker, I endorse the above translation: "Our cause is just"; "We have won". -- Ghirla -трёп-  15:27, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * МЫ ПОБЕДИЛИ is Russian-English-Russian mistranslation. Correct words are ПОБЕДА БУДЕТ ЗА НАМИ. And whole phrase sounds as НАШЕ ДЕЛО ПРАВОЕ, ВРАГ БУДЕТ РАЗБИТ, ПОБЕДА БУДЕТ ЗА НАМИ, which is translated "Our cause is just. Enemy will be destroyed. Victory will be our.". Also that phrase was not said by Josef Stalin, it said Vyacheslav Molotov in the first day of Great Patriotic War by radio. (I'm also native Russian speaker) -Ghoort 07:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

mystery word
When I was in a spelling bee in eighth grade, I was given a word I couldn't recognize, let alone spell. I have tried since then to find out exactly what the word was, with little luck. I remember it sounded something like linstuck or linstock. Does anyone know what (English) word this may be? Any guess would be much appreciated. Deyyaz [ Talk 18:04, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Linstock?, meaning a slow match on a stick used to set off cannons. Rmhermen 18:50, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Related to the rare English word lunt. 惑乱 分からん 23:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Spanish pronunciation of "s" as "h"
I have noticed that some Spanish speakers pronounce "s" at the end of unstressed syllables as "h", "las ciudades" might be pronounced as "lah siuthatheh". An example is found here Vanguardia de la ciencia - liquenes, in the item on lichens. The first time I noticed this was in an interview of Augusto Pinochet. Is this feature of certain dialects (which ones?) or sociolects, or what? --N·Bluetalk 19:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * At Spanish dialects and varieties, we are told, "The realization of syllable-final /s/ as a barely audible [h] or simply nothing is rather noticeable in many dialects, including the Argentine ones. In the Castilian variety, this tendency exists but is less marked." The brief discussion at Spanish phonology (under /s/) also seems to imply that the phenomenon can occur in Madrid Spanish too. Wareh 19:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The person with the "s as h" pronunciation in the audio file that I linked to is Ana Crespo, who works in Madrid as a botanist at the Universidad Complutense, but I don't know if she actually is from Madrid. She also pronounces "c" as "s" (seseo). Can anyone pinpoint her dialect from the podcast? --N·Bluetalk 21:04, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Anyone with a ceceo in Madrid would not likely be from Madrid. If she's Spanish, she'd be from Andalusia or the Canary Islands. I can never make audio files work on Wikipedia so I won't try.
 * The weakening of /s/ to [h] or elision is very widespread in Spanish. It is typical of what is sometimes called the lowland dialects, including most of Southern Spain, the Canaries, the Caribbean, and most of coastal Ibero-America except Pacific Mexico, Peru, and perhaps parts of Central America (I'm not sure about that). Because of the large-scale migration of Andalusians to Barcelona and Madrid, the weakening can be found there too, particularly in the working classes. Someone, not me, oughta clean up the Spanish phonology pages. Argentine Spanish has that feature, but it is far more widespread. I did ceceo, and that was enough for now. mnewmanqc 01:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you! --N·Bluetalk 17:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Latin in USA
Do students in USA learn Latin in high school?--Light current 23:12, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Very few. It has a certain degree of inverse "geek chic", and the Junior Classical League sponsors some colorful and imaginative activities, but the number is still rather small.. AnonMoos 23:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * So you would say most US High school and even college graduates would not understand Latin?--Light current 23:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It's shocking, isn't it? ;) 惑乱 分からん 23:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * In public schools, it is not especially popular among students, however in many private schools (especially Catholic ones) it is popular if not required. Anecdotally, in my school, there are more students in Latin than in French, but both languages combined do not come close to the amount of students in Spanish. -- FaerieInGrey 23:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Is Latin still commonly taught anywhere, even in Catholic schools? Rmhermen 00:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, as far as Google tells me. Not as much as French and Spanish, but I can't find another language that is more common. -- FaerieInGrey 00:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Is there a nation on earth where college graduates generally do understand Latin? That would surprise me, though I do realize the language is popular enough in Finland to keep Nuntii Latini going.  There has been something of a resurgence of interest in Latin in U.S. high schools, such that Latin teachers at that level are in demand.  Wareh 00:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The notion of "college graduate" is tied to the Anglo-Saxon educational system and is not easily transferred to nations having a different system (i.e., most). With the Bologna process, the bachelor's degree may (perhaps) evolve into something equivalent in the European context. --Lambiam Talk  08:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I just checked 4 of my local Catholic schools and only the one associated with the Jesuit University even offered Latin. Rmhermen 00:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I had a class that was after a Latin class, so I know it's offered at the Jesuit university I attend. Whether that's a trend, I have no idea. --Wooty Woot? &#124; contribs 01:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I would be quite surprised to find any reasonably large American university that doesn't... -Elmer Clark 01:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I studied it in my final 4 years of grade school (ages 10-14 and it was a public gifted program, most public grade schools don't offer latin), and it was available to me in high school (I went to Lane Tech) as were French, German and Spanish (similar offerings were at other schools I considered when picking a high school, one specializing in languages offered 13 different langueages to students). After 4 years of Latin I had no interest in studying in HS, and frankly as I was in the Engineering Science program I didn't feel the need for any of the other languages. Illinois dropped the requirement for students to take 2 years of 'foreign language' when I was a sophmore (15-16 years old, this was the early nineties), so I never did study a language further. Several of my friends studied latin in grade school as part of a Catholic school education as well. Robovski 04:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * My public high school offered Latin and I assume it still does. My brother took two years of it and learned nothing, but earned A's. The teacher strongly emphasized history and, after two years, didn't even get through all the conjugations. My brother can't even form a sentence. The students spent most of their time building little models of ballistae and taping "ianua" labels on bathroom doors. A lot of people took it because it was such an easy class. You could get extra credit for wearing bedsheets on test days. I shit you not. I don't know if most U.S. Latin classes are like that, but that's my experience. Bhumiya (said/done) 22:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)