Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 November 25

= November 25 =

French : subjonctif or indicatif? : espérez-vous que, je ne pense pas que,....
Hello,

all these years of studying French and I still haven't figured it out completely. Is there anything harder than the difference between subjonctif and indicatif? :

for instance

"déclarez-vous que....?"

"je ne pense pas que..."

"je ne peux pas dire que..."

"je n'espère pas que..."

"est-il convaincu que...?"

"je n'ai pas vu que"

(This is not homework! :)) And I did do a Google search and...some of my constructions gave both indicatif and subjonctif hits? What's going on??

Thank you , Evilbu 00:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * TTBOMK, there are times when you are required to use the subjunctive or else the sentence is just grammatically wrong. However, there are other times when there are minor meaning differences depending on the form used (I think). --Cody.Pope 06:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Je ne pense pas que is definitely followed by le subjonctif - I'm quite sure of that. Ditto je n'espère pas que....  The others I'm not sure about, but they look like they would need it (especially the convaincu one), but like M. Cody.Pope said, it would depend on the meaning implied.  --   the     GREAT     Gavini   08:21, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I put most example with idiot. : easy to understand for everyone :)


 * "déclarez-vous que....?" --> Indic --> "Déclarez-vous qu'il est idiot?"
 * "je ne pense pas que..." --> Subj -->"Je ne pense pas qu'il soit idiot."
 * "je ne peux pas dire que..." --> Both semmes to me correct ("Je ne peux pas dire qu'il soit idiot", "Je ne peux pas dire qu'il est idiot". In the first sentence, it is really impossible to say or not. In the second, it means "I cannot say he is silly (but I really think he is silly).
 * "je n'espère pas que..." --> subj, but, actually, we don't really use this form ("Je n'espère pas qu'il soit perdu", but "J'espère qu'il n'est pas perdu" (quite a different meaning))
 * "est-il convaincu que...?" --> not really used as well
 * I hope it will help. (I am French)--15.203.169.125 11:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Merci, mais maintenant je n'en comprends rien!
 * First of all :


 * "espérez-vous que...?"
 * "je nie que..."
 * "je ne peux pas nier que..."


 * And for the rest, my book literally says, for "vraisemblance, certitude, opinion, déclaration, perception", use indicatif in an affirmative sentence, use subjonctif in a question or negative sentence?? So what should I do, apart from finding a better book :).?Evilbu 17:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Recordings in Different Dialects of Mandarin
Does anyone know where I could find recordings of speakers of different dialects of Mandarin speaking or reading a passage of text? Thanks in advance. --Philosofinch 04:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Are there different dialects of Mandarin? I thought Mandarin was a single dialect. 惑乱 分からん 09:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, there are. See Mandarin dialects. I don't think it is easy to find such recordings, try to ask some different native speakers to read it for you. Yao Ziyuan 09:53, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Using a single word multiple times to form a sentence
Using a single word multiple times to form a (somewhat complete) sentence. Is there a linguistic term for these?

The only example I can think of/concoct is: "Will Will will Will's will?" (eg "Will William will Bill's will?")

I vaguely recall reading a few examples, and "the longest in English", in a compilation of word games, years ago. Thanks :) --Quiddity 04:19, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know if there's a name for these things, but you might like to read Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. --Anonymous, 05:34 UTC, November 25.


 * Perfect! Thanks. --Quiddity 06:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Or the innkeeper who went outside and admonished the signpainter: "You've left too much space between George and and and and and Dragon." (you've left too much space between George and (the) and, and (the) and, and dragon). ny156uk 16:06, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * See this one in Chinese language: Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den, it uses 92 "shi" to form a short story. Yao Ziyuan 16:10, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Although I don't know if it counts, there are different words pronounced differently. 惑乱 分からん 16:14, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * How about this one: "Bears bear hard hard yarn yarns" 68.231.151.161 06:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * My favourite, which popped into meaning for me like a Magic Eye picture after hours of contemplation, would be "Mary, where Fred had had 'had', had had 'had had'. 'Had had' had had the teacher's approval.". Punctuation added for ease of reading, but it looks even better without. Skittle 15:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

IPA for "spinel"
Spinel is pronounced "spin-el", but how do I write this in IPA? I want to differentiate between this, and "spine-ell". --HappyCamper 05:22, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * If you stress the second syllable (like I do), you get . Speakers who stress the first syllable (making the word basically monosyllabic) say something like . --Lambiam Talk  06:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * isn't monosyllabic. The /l/ is the nucleus to the unstressed syllable.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 06:56, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I was just about to mention . --Kjoonlee 07:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

food (bread) definition
Some years ago, older members of my family referred to the "heel" (end) of a loaf of bread as the "rafee" or "rafie." Does anyone recognize that term, and how is it spelled, and where did it come from? (unsigned question moved to here from misc. reference desk)


 * Is it a nautical family with a penchant for colorful metaphors? The raffee (also known as moonraker) is a sail set above a ship's royals (the highest sails otherwise).  See the second image here for an example that might, I suppose, be likened to the heel of a breadloaf.  (Even less likely, we have the raphe, two syllables, from Greek rhaphē, "stitching," denoting the seam along the middle of the skull, a wound's suture, etc., kind of evocative of the seam you sometimes have in an unbaked loaf...? Okay, I'm grasping at straws.) Wareh 00:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

If you live in the UK
Hey guys, I was reading threw the Groundhog Day (film) article and I found this:

The phrase "Groundhog Day" has entered common use as a reference to an unpleasant situation that continually repeats, or seems to. In the UK, the phrase is almost always used in this sense, as groundhogs are not native and the American "six more weeks of winter" Groundhog Day tradition does not exist.

The term is also entering the real world lexicon as witnessed by the following comments from R. Nicholas Burns, undersecretary of state for political affairs, on talks on the Israel/Lebanon conflict in August 2006. "We’d go home at 10 or 11 at night and say, ‘Tomorrow will be a better day.’ But the next day was Groundhog Day all over again."

I've never heard this used in the American vernacular, and was wondering if it is exclusive to the UK or did I just miss something? (also, forgive the ridiculousness of the question generally, but I still would like some sort of answer) --Cody.Pope 06:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The phrase is not used in the UK, in any fashion; not in my experience anyway. The average British person could not tell a groundhog from a gopher.  The article on Groundhog Day identifies it as a North American tradition.  Clio the Muse 06:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * No that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about as it is described in the sense of a bad thing happening day after day.  This seems to me to be an exclusive UK usage.  --Cody.Pope 06:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * My apologies; I have not expressed myself clearly, though I thought I had. Anyway, let me repeat-it is not used in any sense whatsoever, good or bad.  The article in question is wrong in point of fact.  Clio the Muse 06:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I don't live in the UK, but I can do a Google search on "groundhog day" -murray site:uk. (The -murray is to reduce the number of hits on the film.) Google estimates the number of hits at over 66,000, and scanning the top 20 of these, I see these pages using the phrase in the sense Cody describes, or talking about such use:         . Maybe Clio hasn't encountered it personally, but this seems pretty good evidence that the phrase is used by a fair number of people in the UK. (Perhaps particularly by people in the news media and politics.)


 * Searching for similar uses on US sites is harder, both because there are so many false hits (about the real-life Groundhog Day, the film, etc.) and because most US sites are in the non-national .com domain. However, I was able to locate some examples of the usage that appear to be from the US:     . So, no, it's not unknown there... although I note that in one case the writer felt obliged to explain the expression.


 * --Anonymous, 11:48 UTC, November 25.

If the term "Groundhog Day" is being used to refer to an unpleasant situation that repeats itself, the use doesn't make any sense at all in relationship to what the day itself is. -THB 07:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * "It's deja-vu all over again"hotclaws**== 09:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I live in the Uk and I would consider groundhog day to be an event reoccuring over and over. This would be based on the film which portrays a man stuck living out 'groundhog day' for an unspecified period of time (according to the DVD commentary track they figured it should be about 10 years worth of the same day). As a result the phrase will, I expect, be known by most people in the UK for its meaning from the film, not from the actual event (which if the film is accurate is a reference to a groundhog being used to predict a long winter/early spring). So if I was going over something with somebody several times and getting frustrated I may say something like "it's like groundhog day with you". ny156uk 15:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys. That is generally an awesome phenomenon and I'm glad the wikipedia article was right, otherwise it would have been a good example of wikiality. --Cody.Pope 05:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it's definitely used in the media in the UK. It's basically a lazy journo's way of avoiding using deja vu too many times.  Groundhog Day, in the UK, only ever refers to the film, and is always used in that context (of events / a day repeating themselves endlessly).  Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose.  Proto ::  type  14:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Just in case there was any doubt, I shall add to the consensus that 'Groundhog Day' is indeed used in the UK (not infrequently) to refer to something happening over and over, and just about never to refer to the American 'day' itself. Clio must just read different newspapers to me :-) Skittle 15:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Almost all the hits for "groundhog" in the BBC website refer to the phrase . Indeed, the Conservative Party once picketed a Labour Party conference all dressed as groundhogs to because they felt that Labour policies were not fresh so they had "heard it all before". La  ï  ka  12:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

What does this word mean?
The word is: Ashanteé (I doubt this is the correct spelling, it's pronounced "Ashauntay")

I think it's French but I'm unsure.

- Pyro19 07:44, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Could it be enchanté ("delighted", etc.), perchance? Or maybe (tu) as chanté or (il, elle, etc.) a chanté? --   the     GREAT     Gavini   08:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yup, enchanté is what I was trying to get at. Is it possible to use the word in place of "nice to meet you?" - Pyro19 08:44, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes . --wj32 talk 08:45, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I thought you were talking about Ashanti =S (That's not French, though...) 惑乱 分からん 09:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks guys. - Pyro19 09:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * An option I was thinking of was a Frenchman sneezing and saying 'bless you' ('santé') to himself at the same time. DirkvdM 08:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Meaning of "Lyrstan"
Over at the humanities desk there was a question about the word "lyrstan", being the name given to the steel from which a spark was struck to start a fire. I assume the name refers to it's shape and composition (see the picture there), and is a Scandinavian word, but that is a guess. Does anyone have authoritative information? Seejyb 11:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It doesn't look much like a Scandinavian word (where stone is stein or sten), perhaps it's Old English, where "stan" meant "stone"? 惑乱 分からん 13:28, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I only said that it is someone's user name on what looks like a Nordic site. DirkvdM 08:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * My guess would be a bad transcription of fyrstan Old English for fire-stone i.e. a stone that makes fire. meltBanana  20:16, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable, "fyrstan" allegedly was used for "flint" sometimes. Most hits for fyrstan seems to be in Old Norse or Icelandic, although that word means "first", afaik. 惑乱 分からん 21:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That makes perfect sense. The original source had a typo - "L" for "F".  Fyrstan is flint. -THB 05:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Buying tickets online for gigs in france (from the UK)
Hi, please could someone tell me what the main online ticketing agencies are in france. Preferably those with the best reputation.

Cheers


 * I would use the fnac. Skarioffszky 17:36, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

languages - German,French,Spanish,Chinese
I want to be able to access these different languages from Wikipedia to study them in my home at my own pace. Does Wikipedia have links or pages available for me to access the complete languages (or as comprehensive as possible) of German, French, Spanish, and Chinese for me to study ?

Thank You for your help today,

Tanya---18:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)~


 * Wikipedia's articles about the German language, the French Language, the Spanish language and the Chinese language will give you a lot of information, and wikibooks has some language courses:, , , . Skarioffszky 18:21, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Made-Up Word
what is the word for a "made up" word, which has previously never been recorded or spoken?


 * Neologism. -THB 06:28, 26 November 2006 (UTC)