Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 November 29

= November 29 =

Translation from Thai (I think) for copyright status
I found this image on Thai Wikipedia through an interwiki link. Apparently it is a copyrighted stamp from Thailand, tagged as fair use. I would like to use the image in Asian arowana but I want to make sure the licensing is proper (what's the rationale — is it really fair use to illustrate a fish article with this image?) and also get any information about the variety of arowana pictured. Thanks in advance for any help. --Ginkgo 100 talk 01:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * If you want to ask if a particular image could be used under fair use on the English Wikipedia, please ask at Wikipedia talk:Fair use&mdash;there are knowledgable users there who can help. -- SCZenz 06:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the response. I was also hoping for some translation of the text, in particular about the variety of fish pictured. --Ginkgo 100 talk 20:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Stamps aren't fair use sources of illustration of their subjects, only fair use for illustrations of stamps. If that's a help. Notinasnaid 15:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

What language is this?
These are song titles. The songs were written either around 1490, or between 1505 and 1510, since those were the years the composer likely lived in northern Europe (I'm writing the biography of Johannes Ghiselin, but his birthplace is not known exactly). It's got to be Flemish, Dutch, or some dialect or variant thereof.


 * Een frouwelic wesen;
 * Ghy syt die wertste boven al;
 * Helas hic moet my liden;
 * Wet ghy wat mynder jonghen herten dert.

Bonus point for a translation. :) Antandrus  (talk) 05:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * This site has a translation of "Ghy syt die wertste..." --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 06:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks like Flemish to me. "Een frouwelic wesen" is "a female creature". "Ghy syt die wertste boven al" means "You are the most valued of [above] all". "Helas hic moet my liden" probably translates as "Alas I have to suffer", though I'm not completely sure. "Wet ghy wat mynder jonghen herten dert" sounds like "Do you know what my young deer is doing" to my Dutch ears, but again I have some doubts. Skarioffszky 07:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The unidentified recording the blurb text linked to above is about is At the Sign of the Crumhorn: Flemish Songs and Dance Music from the Susato Music Books, Naxos 8.554425. According to the text of the blurb the language of the songs in the Susato music books is Dutch; it also uses "Flemish" but apparently considers this synonymous. --Lambiam Talk  07:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I wonder whether "Wet ghy wat mynder jonghen herten dert" wouldn't more likely be something like "Do you know what my young heart is doing" or "... how my young heart is beating", or something like that?... Have you got any further lyrics? 惑乱 分からん 14:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course. Heart. Skarioffszky 15:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Would frouwelic really translate to ‘female’ rather than something like ‘lady-like’? Not that I'm in any way educated in older Germanic languages. Wikipeditor 14:34, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks all! I put Flemish in the article, but maybe Dutch would be better. None of the three sources I used mention what language it is, and I'm not expert on the languages/dialects of the Low Countries around 1500. It's also possible he wrote songs in more than one dialect. For what it's worth, the Grove article on him calls him a "South Netherlandish" composer, whatever that means (is that present-day Belgium?) Antandrus (talk) 16:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * First of all, the South Netherlands are more or less present-day Belgium, but only the Flemings in the northern region, speak Dutch (in Flanders].
 * I am Flemish and I think 'Wet ghy wat mynder jonghen herten dert" is "Weet jij wat mijn jonge hart deert" ="Do you know what hurts my young heart?"
 * I would like to express that this is not how Flemings speak (that is why I am not sure either) and that some people with a hidden agenda try to make Dutch and Flemish look like a separate language. That couldn't be more incorrect, there is no such thing as books, administration, newspapers, dictionaries... in Flemish :).

Evilbu 17:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Your guess on the title sounds reasonable.
 * Also, not to argue with you, but the argument
 * That couldn't be more incorrect, there is no such thing as books, administration, etc. in Flemish.
 * isn't valid, linguistically, considering languages are also spoken. Now it appears that Flemish and Dutch generally are very singular when spoken, but the argument isn't valid. 惑乱 分からん 17:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * According to our article Flemish (linguistics) the term applied to language is rather ambiguous. It can refer to a specific Dutch dialect, West Flemish, which is spoken in parts of the Netherlands, Belgium and France, and may or may not include Zealandic. Or it can refer to a group of dialects also including East Flemish. Then the areas where these are spoken include most of the former County of Flanders, from which the dialect has its name. It does not include all of the areas of Belgium where a Dutch dialect is spoken, because there are also the Brabantian and Limburgish dialects. For example, Brussels and Antwerp are in the Brabantian region. Then an entirely different but quite common meaning is the variety of standard Dutch heard from Dutch speakers in Belgium. I assume this is mainly a matter of accent, while there will of course also be a continuum of shifts in vocabulary as you move from North to South (or from East to West, for that matter). The conclusion is that saying the language is "Flemish" is uninformative and may be misleading. As Tielman Susato's publishing house was in Antwerp, and Ghiselin is placed in 1507 in Bergen op Zoom, also in the Duchy of Brabant, if a dialect has to be identified, it is more likely Brabantian. --Lambiam Talk  07:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * (To Antandrus:) Are you aware that the German Wikipedia has an entry on Johannes Ghiselin? --Lambiam Talk  07:39, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Possessive
I'm wondering about the usage and spelling of the word "business" in it's posseessive term. Specifically, do I write "You can maximize your business' presence" OR do I write "You can maximize your business's presence"? Do you use the "s" after apostrophe or not?
 * I don't think it really matters, as long as you are consistent. While we're on the subject of apostrophes, though, there should not be one in the word "its" in your first sentence. --Richardrj talkemail 14:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Someone said that Strunk & White's Elements of Style indicates that the possessive of a singular noun should be done by adding apostrophe and "s" to it. I guess this is true even for words that end in the letter "s" like business?
 * Normally that is true, yes. But words that already end in 's' are an exception.  As I said above, you can add the s if you like, or leave it off.  Both business' and business's are equally correct. --Richardrj talkemail 15:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's what Strunk and White say. If I recall correctly they do note a few exceptions: ancient people (Ramses', Jesus', etc.) and abstract concepts ("For goodness' sake!").  LW izard  @ 16:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I think those exceptions are for names that contain 2 consecutive sibilants (Jesus', Moses', Ramses' etc), but names that merely end with an s would be different (Marcus's, Julius's etc). On the original question, I recognise that it is considered acceptable to either include or exclude the s, as long as you're consistent within the same text.  However, whether you write business's or business', you would always pronounce it "business's" (well, I always would).  On that basis, it seems counter-intuitive to exclude the letter from the spelling (kinda like the reverse of a silent letter).  JackofOz 04:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

IPA confusion or am I speaking a different dialect: French é
First a little background information. I consider myself to have a General American accent, without the Northern Cities Vowel Shift, being brought up in an ethnically mixed suburb of Chicago. My mother is French, she was originally from Normandy, grew up in Paris, and then moved to the US in the 60's. I guess my french accent would be closest to the Parisian accent, though since I picked up French from older folks, I preserve some old features like the difference between pâte and patte. To get to the point, I saw the article on French Pronunciation, and I disagree with how they recommend the pronunciation of é/er/ez (IPA: /e/). The most recent edit says it sounds like the a in chaos (IPA: according to wiktionary). But to me, chaos sounds like IPA. I recommended the closest approximation as the i in sit (IPA:, to me sounds like /set/?), to better differentiate é (IPA: /e/) from è (IPA: ), but apparently isn't right either. --Cnadolski 16:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think that there is any doubt that the right pronunciation of é/er/ez is IPA [e]. So maybe the article should simply say "é, er, ez - see:Close-mid front unrounded vowel", where there is a sound sample. All these English accents are just confusing. Skarioffszky 19:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It may be me, but when I listen to that sound sample I hear a diphthong or even, which sounds like French  "é, er, ez" pronounced with an English accent. It may be the monophthongal (is that a word?) character of the proper French pronunciation that makes it sould like.


 * I believe in California English, /e/ and are pretty much switched phonetically (at least, the former is higher than the latter).  I haven't seen a proper vowel chart for French showing the precise location of its vowels, but I don't doubt that  is the closest cardinal vowel for the sound.  Keep in mind that the measurement of vowels is done with formants, not with vague impressions.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 07:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys, this helps clear things up for me. If you want you can take a look at French Pronunciation and see if my changes make sense.--Cnadolski 19:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)