Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 November 4

= November 4 =

"Do you have . . . ?" in Japanese
What is the proper way to ask the question ''Do you have. . . ?'' in Japanese? I thought it was Nani-nani ga arimasu ka?, but a (non-Japanese) friend insists that for animate objects (do you have a dog, children, etc.), it should be Nani-nani ga imasu ka? I understand there's a difference between aru and iru when used in the sense of existence. But does this hold true even in the sense of possession? Thanks, — BrianSmithson 04:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Strictly speaking, aru and iru here are still being used in the sense of existence. It's only when translated into English that it seems like possession. Literally, you're saying Is there a . . . ?. So I think your friend is right. --Ptcamn 04:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, that makes sense. Thanks. — BrianSmithson 05:36, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * -iru should always be used when describing living things! Else you're sort of implying your dog, for example, is an object. --Wooty Woot? &#124; contribs 05:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * When I learnt Japanese, I mostly replaced them all with "desu", anyway... Kinda sloppy... 惑乱 分からん 06:46, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * In general, if you would like to know if something belongs to someone,
 * （あなたは）XX を持っていますか？ (Anata wa) XX wo motte imasu ka? // Do you have XX?
 * is a general way. You can safely omit (Anata wa), you know. Then, let's think about the dog's case:
 * （あなたは）犬を飼っていますか？ (Anata wa) Inu wo katte imasu ka? // Do you have a dog/dogs?
 * For pets, verb 飼う kau (have an aminal/animals) is much more natual than 持つ motsu (have, in general). What about children then? For simplicity, consider asking one's brother(s):
 * （あなたには）兄弟はいますか？ (Anata ni wa) kyoudai wa imasu ka? // Do you have a brother/brothers?
 * Now it's better use いる iru (exist, be). I don't think you possess your brother, children, parents, etc. Rather, they are related to us (and yes, they are relatives, right?). It's also okay to use this いる for animals so long as used with some place, like
 * (casual) お前んち（に）は犬いるの？ Omae n chi (ni) wa inu iru no? // Do you have a dog at home? (literally) Is there any dog at your home? -- Here, お前 is casual (and rather rude) form of あなた (you); ん is casual form of の; ち is casual form of 家(home); は(wa) after 犬(inu) is omitted. This kind of いる(iru) usage is rather casual in nature, thus "あなたの家に犬はいますか？ Anata no ie ni inu wa imasu ka?" is grammatically perfect but a bit unnatural. Try 飼っていますか if you'd like to use formal question.
 * Note we don't say "(incorrect) あなたには犬はいますか？ Anata ni wa inu wa imasu ka?" nor "(incorrect) あなたは犬がいますか -- perhaps Japanese people thought pets and and livestock belong to place, and are possessed by humans... I don't know for sure (I'm basically engineering major).
 * Yet another scene: if you'd like to buy something, then ask:
 * （ここに/そこに）XX はありますか？ (Kokoni/Sokoni) XX wa arimasu ka? // Do you sell XX (here/there)?
 * XX は置いて（い）ますか？ XX wa oite (i)masu ka? // Do you sell XX?
 * XX は扱って（い）ますか？ XX wa atsukatte (i)masu ka? // Do you treat XX?
 * HTH, marsian 14:19, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * You're a native Japanese speaker, so I hate to argue with you, but XXを持っている to me sounds like "Are you holding XX", not "Do you have a XX" (as in "do you own a XX").  howch e  ng   {chat} 23:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * There's nothing wrong with Marsian's explanation. There is no perfect translation for the verb "have" in Japanese (I usually teach "have" as a spatial relation chart), so most occurences of "Do you have... ?" will translate into literal structures along the lines of "Do you hold (持つ)... ?" or "Is there a (有る・居る) ... for you/of yours?" as he said. Don't burden yourself with literal translations. freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  01:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Italian slang
What's that slang word they always use in The Sopranos? It sounds like "marón" or "madón", but I can't come up with any results in Google since I don't know the spelling. A similar word (?) appears in Will Eisner's A Contract with God, but spelled differently: "Mahdoan, Jacob, it's a good deal." What's the correct spelling and what does it mean? Thanks! --Grace 09:14, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps this is a Sicilian pronunciation of "Madonna"? Marco polo 15:06, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It is indeed a short form of Madonna. Here is HBO's guide to Sopranos lingo. (BTW I think they're from the Neapolitan area, not Sicily). --Cam 15:52, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Perplexing Plaque


This photo was taken by Vmenkov in Florence. He asked me to attempt a translation; I failed pitifully. I am quite sure that the Hebrew is a biblical quotation, beginning something like "In the name of God show mercy". I wondered if any of you people could attempt it. If you do, please put the translation up on the photo's description page at Commons.

Thanks! &mdash; D a  niel  (‽) 16:34, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I can't help you with the Hebrew, but here's my shot at the Latin:


 * Fernandino II, Grand Duke of Etruria, and [his] mother Maria Magdalena the august Archdeacon Archduchess of Austria, have completed the work of this building in pious copper/bronze/brass, so that the guardian of chastity may evade the golden stranger with modesty.


 * (Second Latin part to follow.) —Keenan Pepper 01:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * That is, the Grand Duke of Tuscany. Google seems to show that the Hebrew (or the rest of the inscr. for that matter) is not online (except for one image & transcription, spam-blacklisted from Wikipedia, that ignorantly labels it "Arabic").  Surely someone will come along whose Hebrew is not as rusty as mine.  (Bottom Latin runs "Set on fire by Divine Love, the Most Serene Princes Nori have offered an example of great honorableness against the greatest dishonor." Perhaps the same family as Francesco Nori who died to save the life of Lorenzo il Magnifico.)   Wareh 04:04, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * "ARCHID. AUST." would be Archduchess of Austria. It refers to this lady, the mother of Ferdinand II. --Cam 18:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, Nori is a name! I kept trying to interpret it as "I know", so no wonder it didn't make sense to me. —Keenan Pepper 22:38, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The Hebrew says something like: "They acted in kindness for the love of God, the ascension of supremacy of our rulers against kindness." Mo-Al 00:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * So it looks like the Latin on the bottom says something similar to the Hebrew. I have a hunch in that case that "NORI" with a stroke over the O is an abbreviation for "nostri." --Cam 06:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks everyone (and also Wictionary)! So I take it that Ferdinando II de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany and his Mom the regent praise themselves for building a charitable institution of some sort (currently, the name of the institution housed in the building is Istituto San Salvatore, but I don't know if it was the same in 1627). I have now modified the description of the image in Wiki Commons with what I feel is the most likely translation, but of course any experts on Florentine history and/or Latin and Hebrew are welcome to improve it - it would be cool if somebody could use it as an illustration in an artivcle that has to do with the historic context for the event that the plaque commemorates. Vmenkov 08:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Um, none of the latin ones are very likely, in my opinion. (There used to be some people with much better latin than mine around here, where'd they go?) Anyway, what I make of it is:
 * "Ferdinand II, Archduke of Tuscany and his mother Maria Magdalena, archduchess of Austria, erected this building as a bronze atonement to recompense in gold the guardian of chasity, exhalting virtue." and the bottom "May divine love inspire the serene principalities of Austria, who offer an example of great honor against the greatest dishonor."
 * "Nori" isn't a name, it's an abbreviation (there are several others), for Noricum. The latter part is probably a reference to the 30 Years War, or maybe the Turks. Note you shouldn't follow Enlish cognates too closely. :) Anyway, let it wait a bit, because there are people here who know better Latin than me :). --BluePlatypus 20:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow, a punctuated Latin inscription, that was very thoughtful of them! We should probably also decide what the Latin says, because I think some of the abbreviations have been missed...how about "Dominus (assuming the Dom is part of it) Ferdinandus II Magnus Dux Aetruriae, et Maria Magdalena mater Archiducissa Austriae huius aedificii opus pio aere perfecerunt, ut aurum hostis castitatis custos evaderet pudicitiae. (Hebrew) Amore divino inflammati serenissimi principes nostri praebuere exemplum magnae honestatis contra maximam inhonestatem."

So that would mean, "Lord Ferdinand II, Grand Duke of Tuscany, and his mother Maria Magdalena, Archduchess of Austria, built this piously [or literally, "completed the work of this building with a pious air"], so that the guard of modesty might avoid the gold of the enemy of chastity. Inflammed by divine love, our most serene princes have produced an example of great honesty against the greatest dishonesty."

"Nori" is not a name or a place, it's just an abbreviation for "nostri". Adam Bishop 21:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Right, that would explain the mark of abbreviation over the o! Wareh 21:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Right. And BluePlatypus, there are lots of other abbreviation marks...they often replace an N or an M. So it doesn't actually say "perfecerut", there is a line above the U. It's very common to see that. Endings of words are also dropped often, especially when the case and gender are obvious from context. Adam Bishop 22:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Right, but why "perfecerunt" and not "perfecerat"? Since the marks seem to be where the problem is? I'd expect it to be on the end then? As for "Nori", it's probably wrong here, but I don't make things up - it's is an existing abbreviation of "Noricum" on Latin inscriptions. But the other interpretation makes more sense now that I see how the marks line up. I still think "inspired" is a better translation for this usage than "inflamed", though. Nice to a correct version, it fits now :) Turns out I was a lot closer at my first guess, and then I got confused by the word order starting at "ut" and did crazy reintepretations. I couldn't figure out why "enemy" should be there, but the verb interpretation didn't seem much better, being in the second-person. --BluePlatypus 22:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, my translation is pretty quick, so it's not necessarily the best. But I'm sure about the abbreviation marks. It's perfecerunt because they both Ferdinand and Maria built it...perfecerat would be singular, but more importantly pluperfect, which wouldn't be necessary. And where is the last A? Why would they make a note to correct a botched inscription? Adam Bishop 23:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, I see. Hmm, but wouldn't you make a note to correct a botched inscription? While I "see" the the abbreviation marks now, the Hebrew Niqqud still look a bit like they were added in afterwards. --BluePlatypus 23:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't they just make a new plaque, rather than use a botched one in public? They're just abbreviations, they're very common. Adam Bishop 01:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

First of all you have to reconstruct the entire latin text beyond abbreviations and omissis. There are three words with missing letters, which in all three cases are signed by a mark, a kind of "accent" as you see on the foto: "perfeceru^t", "auru^" and "no^ri". These omissions appear often in plaques because marble was expensive, errors occured and anyways saving space through abbreviations was common. Correct would be "perfecerunt", "aurum" and "nostri". The whole text becomes: "Ferdinandus II magnus dux Aetruriae et Maria Magdalena mater Archiductrix Austriae huius aedificii opus pio aere perfecerunt, ut aurum hostis castitatis custos evaderet pudicitiae. Amore divino inflammati serenissimi principes nostri praebuerunt exemplum magnae honestatis contra maximam inhonestatem.

Translation: "Ferdinand II, the Greatduke of Tuscany, and his mother Mary Magdalena, the Archduchess of Austria, have completed the construction of this building with honest money (aere pio), so that the custodian of decency may avoid the gold of chastity's enemy. The Serene Highnesses of our lordships/princes, inflamed by divine love thus gave an example of great honesty against greatest dishonesty". The good deed was to give prostitutes the possibility to abbandon their activity. I once read this in a florentine book on local stories off the beaten track of the Great History, but unfortunatly I do not have this book any more and cannot tell you its title. The plaque hasn't anything to do with the today institution of the building. The hebrew inscription was added because the areal of the ghetto (established in 1571) was just adjacent to the building (the plaque is from 1627) between Piazza della Repubblica, Via Roma, Piazza dell'Olio and Via Brunelleschi (as described in, see also https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comunit%C3%A0_ebraica_di_Firenze#Sotto_il_Granducato) and part of the prostitutes were obviously jewish women. DOM means - according to and depending on the context - Deo Optimo Maximo (for/dedicated to: God the Best and Greatest) or in more antique texts before the christian age Diis Omnibus Manibus (for all the Manes), see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manes. Here obviously only the first option is possible.

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinando_II_de%27_Medici,_Grand_Duke_of_Tuscany

Wikiname (talk) 16:04, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Enough Danish to get by
I've been using this page:(a Danish phrase guide) but I haven't even mastered the pronunciation of "Jeg taler ikke dansk" or "Taler du engelsk?" Nevertheless, I'd like help with a couple more phrases, with pronunciation if possible: "I don't eat meat" and "Do you have anything vegetarian?". Also, how is "Lyngby" pronounced, so I can at least know where to get off the train, and if I get lost can go around repeating one word to people until someone takes pity on me and points me in the right direction? Thanks. moink 17:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * My knowledge of Danish pronunciation is not perfect, but I think "Lingbee" should be an approximation close enough to be understood... 惑乱 分からん 18:04, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I was under the impression that "by" (for town) was pronounced more like the French "bu" which I would assume would then be a part of "Lyngby." moink 18:13, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, yeah, if you manage the sound, then it's a better choice. If I'm not mistaken, I think the first y is short and the second long... 惑乱 分からん 19:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Btw, I think Danes generally know enough 2nd language English, for you to bother with Danish on a short tourist trip... 惑乱 分からん 18:07, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I know. I just don't like to be the stereotypical North American who just starts babbling in English without making even an attempt at the local language.  And if I stray from my hotel or from tourist areas, I might end up at a restaurant without English-speaking waitstaff and have to communicate my dietary preferences.  moink 18:13, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * When I asked a question about pronunciation here, I was directed to this link, which seems very helpful. It's a program with computer voices able to pronounce words in various languages, including Danish. Probably much easier to listen (even to computer voices) than try to approximate the sounds based on written instructions. Good luck! --Grace 22:47, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks Grace. That has helped some with pronunciation, especially the "very slow" option.  But I still can't for the life of me pronounce "engelsk" or figure out whether "ikke" is one or two syllables (1.5?  is that possible?).  I think I can get "Lyngby" down though.  18.252.6.168 07:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The BBC language pages are really good too. (Yes, they have Danish). But that computer-voice thing does actually sound a lot better than I thought it would. (Failing on stød, as would be expected) Anyway, "ikke" is definitely two syllables, but the second one is not stressed. But one can't really screw up Danish pronunciation more than the Danes themselves have - some of the dialects are almost entirely unintelligible even to natives. :) --BluePlatypus 08:31, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

List of events
How would you create a list of events in an essay? Would you seperate them by commas or periods? For example, I woke up. I got some coffee. I went to class. or would you do it by commas? I woke up, got some coffee, and then I went to class. --Agester 20:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, if you were James Frey, it'd be the former, but at least with the example you gave, the latter is more appropriate. I can't think of any examples where periods would be better, but I can think of examples where semicolons would be. Anchoress 20:49, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Well I'm a little unsure because i thought maybe you can separate them by transition words too. Like: First, I woke up. Second, I got some coffee. Lastly, I went to class. Because in this form i can kind of put them all in their own sentences and it'd still be the list of events i took. The transition words i guess binds them is what i thought of. --Agester 21:00, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * If you want to leave the sentences exactly as they are, you should use semicolons: "I woke up; I got some coffee; I went to class.". If you use commas you have to add either one or more conjuctions: "I woke up, got some coffee and went to class." or some prepositions "First I woke up, then got some coffee, and afterwards I went to class.". That about covers it. &mdash; D a  niel  (‽) 21:46, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * This is a matter of style. There is nothing incorrect about very short sentences. They just look very elementary. Very short sentences, like the ones in your first example, appear in English mainly in books teaching reading to very small children or to English-language learners.  When you have very short, related clauses like these, it is normal, and more refined, to combine them into a single sentence.  The simplest way to do this would be "I woke up, got some coffee, and then went to class."  Marco polo 23:01, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Or "I woke up, got some coffee, and went to class." "Then" isn't absolutely necessary. --203.206.80.233 04:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * "Woke up, got out of bed, dragged a comb across my head..." StuRat 02:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)