Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 September 15

=September 15=

US English idiom?
What does "She's lost it." mean in US English when there is no clue in the context about the "it"? —Masatran 01:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It probably refers to emotional control. She's lost it usually refers to someone who is upset/angry or seemingly disturbed in some way.  --TeaDrinker 01:04, 15 September 2006 (UTC) (edited to add, that is only on my authority as a native US English speaker) --TeaDrinker 01:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Usually this phrase will refer to losing either one's patience or their reason. Example per usage one: She's lost it after having to wait for her brother for three hours.  (i.e. she's fed up, exasperated).  Example per usage two: After telling us the moon really was made of cheese, we knew she'd lost it.  (i.e. She's lost her mind).  You can probably tell which of these two is meant through context, and I wouldn't suggest actually looking for what "it" literally refers to-- just like how you don't look for an antecedent when you say "it's raining."  Hope this helps!  Dar-Ape (talk • contribs) 01:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Welsh-English dictionary
Does someone know where can I find a free Welsh-English dictionary on the web? Cheers. --Knight in Shining Armor 01:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * ,, google search for more Dar-Ape (talk • contribs) 01:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * www.yourdictionary.com has thousands of links to dictionaries for several dozens of languages, Welsh being one of them of course . Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 12:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Ye gods! That Webster's Online link really inspires confidence from the top of the first page: "Welsh English Dictionary Cymreig - Saesneg" - they obviously haven't twigged that "Cymreig" means "Welsh" as in "pertaining to the Welsh people", but the name of the Welsh language is "Cymraeg". -- Arwel (talk) 15:30, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * "Webster's Online Dictionary Rosetta Edition" should be avoided wherever possible, and certainly should not be used as a dictionary for Wikipedia purposes; the whole site is one massive copyright violation. The editor refuses to acknowledge any sources, largely because most of his data was stolen from copyrighted sources without permission (despite the misleading claims on the equally misleading "credits" page, which does not contain any credits). &mdash; Haeleth Talk 16:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

What is IP?
My other question is the correct placement of an accent mark in the spelong of a first name spelled Seithe pronounced Seth. Have seen the accent mark 3 different ways `'/ witch way does it go after the first E thank you for your help


 * You mean the IP address (Internet Protocoll address)? I would recommend entering "IP" in the search field of Wikipedia. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 12:38, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Phrasal verbs
A colleague of mine for whom English is a second language asked me an interesting question about phrasal verbs for which I did not have a very good answer. Basically, what is the difference, if any, between the meanings of the phrasal verb cut down in the following two sentences?


 * People are cutting the trees down to clear land for pastures.
 * People have always cut down trees to collect firewood.

In other words, does splitting the phrasal verb cut down have any effect on the meaning or change the connotations of the sentence? Is one sentence emphasizing the object while the other emphasizes the action? Thanks in advance. 210.239.12.91 02:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * People are cutting down the trees to clear land for pastures.
 * People have always cut trees down to collect firewood.


 * How do these look? ;) --Kjoonlee 02:57, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't understand. Like I said, I could not give him a satisfactory answer, hence my asking here. But the second of your sentences sounds slightly non-idiomatic. And the first sentence sounds like perhaps it is putting more emphasis on the action of cutting than it is on the object (the trees), unlike in my first sentence. Then again, I could be full of it. :) 210.239.12.85 03:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * There isn’t to my mind a difference between these two verbs. I can make the following thematic paraphrases that make the two verbs identical:

—People are cutting down the trees to clear land for pastures. [This action is still taking place at the moment of speaking] People have always cut trees down to collect firewood. [an action that has happened in the past and could happen again] jonica 82.57.231.34 22:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * People are cutting down the trees to clear land for pastures.
 * People have always cut down trees to collect firewood.


 * The verbs don’t seem to be different at all. There are two different aspects indicated by “are + -ing” in the first and “have always + -ed” in the second, but those don’t change the inherent meaning of the verb. There is a difference between the mass noun “trees” and the definite plural noun phrase “the trees”, but they’re functionally the same. But the difference between the meanings of the verbs is nil in this contextless situation. BTW, I am a native speaker of English, and I accept all of the sentences given so far, including the ones I offered of course. — Jéioosh 04:33, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The above posts are all correct in that there is no inherent difference in meaning between any of those sentences, but I think it should be mentioned that in conversation a slight difference in meaning can be implied with changes in intonation.
 * People are cutting the trees down to clear land for pastures.
 * i.e. cutting is the method that is used, as opposed to pushing, etc.
 * People are cutting the trees down to clear land for pastures.
 * i.e. cutting trees clears the land, as opposed to moving rocks, etc.
 * People have always cut down trees to collect firewood.
 * i.e. cutting is the method of choice, as opposed to pushing, etc.
 * People have always cut down trees to collect firewood.
 * i.e. trees are used for firewood, as opposed to grass, etc.
 * The word order of these sentences can also have a similar effect, though simply changing the placement of "trees" doesn't. freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  12:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that it makes no difference to the meaning of a phrasal verb whether it is split or continuous. I think that there has been a historical trend toward not breaking these phrases.  The one exception is when the phrasal verb has a pronominal object.  Splitting is optional except when the phrasal verb has a pronoun as its object.  Phrasal verbs have to split for object pronouns:


 * People have always cut trees down is correct.
 * People have always cut down trees is correct.
 * People have always cut them down is correct.
 * People have always cut down them is incorrect.


 * Marco polo 15:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Not true.
 * &#42;I came an interesting article across last night. Incorrect.
 * I came across an interesting article last night. Correct.
 * &#42;I came it across last night. Incorrect.
 * I came across it last night. Correct.
 * --Kjoonlee 16:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC) --Kjoonlee 16:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Kjoonlee is correct, and I was sloppy. What I said applies only to phrasal verbs in which the verb is paired with an adverb.  Marco polo 16:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The distinction you're now discussing is called separability, at least in the ESL community. Each phrasal verb is either separable ("I talked into my mother letting me go."), inseparable ("I ran an old friend into yesterday."), or "optional" [my term] (for example, "cut down"). The phenomenon you mention where an object pronoun forces the phrasal verb to split only applies to "optional" verbs. ("I talked her into it" and "I ran into him" have no alternatives, which is their normal pattern; "I cut them down" is the only option, which violates the normal pattern for "cut down", necessitating this rule.)


 * The classification of verbs as separable, inseparable, or "optional" has nothing to do with adverbs or anything like that, but is simply an intrinsic part of each phrasal verb that must be learned. In some cases, different meanings of the verb have different patterns: not all dialects agree on this example, but for some people, you can turn on a microwave, but you can't turn on your girlfriend (unless she's a robot); you hopefully turn her on. The phrasal verb cut down is what I called an optional verb, and there is no difference in meaning between the split and un-split uses. Tesseran 10:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Tesseran. I learned something.  Marco polo 19:28, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

By "I talked into my mother letting me go", I assume you meant "I talked my mother into letting me go". And by "I ran an old friend into yesterday", I assume you meant "I ran into an old friend yesterday". JackofOz 12:00, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

ELEVEN LETTER WORD
Please give me an eleven letter word using F,T,O,A,U,N,G,D,S,N,O.07:38, 15 September 2006 (UTC)WendywittenWendywitten
 * Thought hard, couldn't come up with anything. :( got-sad-no-fun. ---Sluzzelin 08:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Run it through an anagram generator with no luck. Plenty of phrases but no single word. --Richardrj talkemail 08:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * What for? If it's a riddle, rearranging the letters probably won't give the answer. Black Carrot 15:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Searching for "^[ftoaungdsno]\{11}$" in my list of words gave me nothing. I did get "foodstuffs" which is ten letters. --Kjoonlee 16:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * How did you get "foodstuffs" if there's only one "f"? --  the     GREAT     Gavini   16:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Because his "grep"-style search pattern didn't actually count individual letter occurrences... AnonMoos 18:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The longest I can get is fondants, which is eight. It isn't a foreign word, perchance? --   the     GREAT     Gavini   16:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * found no angst. -- DLL .. T 18:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Could be, although I thought it was a word. --  the     GREAT     Gavini   06:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Another eight-letter word is ganodont. The phrase son of a gun uses everything except the D and the T. —Bkell (talk) 03:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

German compound words
This question above made me wonder about the rules regarding formation of compound words in written German. In the example quoted, would it only be correct to write Lieblingsfernsehsendung, or would Lieblings fernseh sendung also be acceptable? In other words, what are the rules regarding running together shorter words to form longer words? --Richardrj talkemail 08:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Spaces are wrong, everything run together is correct. Recently, it has also become fashionable to use hyphens like Lieblings-Fernsehsendung to facilitate reading. I don't know whether this has been allowed or not.--gwaihir 12:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * While never considered correct by authoritative bodies, the use of spaces between elements of a compound noun seems to increase especially in made-up words, for example Pisa Schock (Klett) or Dell Vor-Ort Service (Dell), although it can already be seen in old newspaper advertising or old photographies. The question is also what should be considered a compound and what are merely two words, an example being the traditional orthography's radfahren “(to) ride a bicycle” vs. Auto fahren “(to) drive a car”, with the reformed orthography favouring separation.


 * In modern Swedish, separation is still advised against by all people involved in prescriptive language usage, but usage nevertheless seems to increase quite rapidly. 惑乱 分からん 17:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I’m totally hypothesizing out of my ass here, but I get think that the increasingly popular use of graphically separated compounds in the Germanic languages is due to the increasing influence of English. English writers generally prefer separated compounds, ceteris paribus. I wonder if the tendency towards “run-together” compounds is due to the old writing practices of blackletter... — Jéioosh 04:29, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Increasing influence of English in modern times seems likely. It has often been theorized about in Swedish linguistic circles. 惑乱 分からん 18:10, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Word perversion?
I'm trying to remember the word that describes a mutation in a word towards a simpler or "cruder" form. The example I need it for envolves the use of Japanese "desu" as "ss"/"ssu", which is basically an extremely casual/vulgar evolution of the word that is not formally acceptable as correct Japanese. freshofftheufo ΓΛĿЌ  12:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Elision? See the section about Japanese.--Shantavira 12:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That's not actually what I thought I was looking for, but it fits much better. Thanks! freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  12:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Some works (and people) use corruption. I find the value-judgment implied by this word to be objectionable, and do not use it in this sense. ColinFine 08:57, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes that might have actually been the word I was looking for, but I agree with you that it's a little harsh. Japanese elision seems to be pretty well documented too, so I'll use that instead. freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  08:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Science Fair title
I'm doing Science Fair this year! I need a catchy title for my experiment. I'm measuring Vitamin C in different kinds of orange juice. A Clown in the Dark 14:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * A Juicy Experiment? ;;) Duja 15:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, Jay Cee! freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  15:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I can't think of anything clever, but I've noticed two popular ways to go on it: Really smart-sounding (Measurement of Ascorbic Acid Levels in Common Citrus Products, or some such) or funny/punnish. The former is easier, if you can find a lot of big words to pack into it, and would (I figure) be more impressive to the judges. Or, you could go with something shocking like Does Sunny D Promote Scurvy? (I pulled my info from the vitamin c article, so blame it if they're wrong.) Black Carrot 15:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Did you see C, writer ? -- DLL .. T 18:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * And it happened at sea. See? C for Catwoman! ;) 惑乱 分からん 22:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * O.J., Can you C? Thedoorhinge 01:43, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Vitamin C? O.J. did it! Thedoorhinge 02:15, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Sleeping Quarters
I would like to know what the origin of Sleeping Quarters?
 * quarters are basically "rooms", and you can imagine how the word came to mean that, i.e. a floor divided into 4 rooms would be divided into 4 quarters, thus each room would be a quarter. It seems that the term has only survived in military usage. freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  15:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * OED gives it as late 16th century.  The word might be from "quarter" in the sense of "area of a town", like French quartier.  --   the     GREAT     Gavini   16:51, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Real Genius Song
There's a song in the middle of Real Genius that I really like, but I can't seem to find it anywhere. Based on, I figure it might be "Number One" by "Chas Jankel", but I can't find mention of any such song anywhere else. Some lyrics from the middle of the song:
 * I'd give the world if I could be number one
 * Number one is the long way to salvation
 * I'll do
 * My best
 * To beat
 * The rest
 * And be
 * The best
 * In the nation

If anyone could find me the rest of the lyrics, or a recording of the song, I'd appreciate it. Black Carrot 15:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It definitely is Number One by Chaz Jankel. The non-existent soundtrack album to Real Genius has haunted me for years.  I have managed to collect most of the songs via peer-to-peer networks, except the Tonio K song, which evidently never appeared anywhere else.  A Google search turned up a link on YouTube, but I can not click on that from this PC.  I didn't find any lyrics sites, but I will try to transcribe it after I get home today.  --LarryMac 16:10, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Right, so that YouTube link is a music video for the song, which I certainly had never seen. I did manage a transcription of most of the song, but of course I can't post lyrics here on WP.  You can contact me via my talk page to discuss further.  And just out of curiousity, why is this question on the Language desk ;-)  --LarryMac 18:24, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

latin legal phrases
translate latin legal phrases into english


 * What is your question? Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 16:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I think he's looking for English translations of Latin legal terms. See List of legal Latin terms.  --   the     GREAT     Gavini   16:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I would like to point out that the user did not request a list. He wanted you to translate them, he didn't say he wanted you to write it here too (maybe he is a Latin teacher who is concerned about us not exercising enough?).  Seriously, am I the only one who thinks such a brief question without "please" and signature is rude?Evilbu 18:38, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * No you are not--Light current 02:55, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Spanish Prayer
Lord, make me an instrument of Your peace. Where there is hatred, let me sow love; where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt, faith; where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light; and where there is sadness, joy. O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console; to be understood as to understand; to be loved as to love; for it is in giving that we receive; it is in pardoning that we are pardoned; and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life

Translate the following text in to mexican spanish.


 * I recommend using the word "please" in requests. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 00:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * This is the Prayer of Saint Francis. You can find a translation on the Spanish Wikipedia or simply by Googling for 'Oración de San Francisco'. --ⁿɡ͡b Nick Boalch \ talk 00:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * As far as I understand, Spanish Spanish and Mexican Spanish should be about as different as British and American English. Basic Standard Spanish would be understood in all hispanic countries. 惑乱 分からん 11:38, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Besides, prayers generally aren't written in any modern dialect. freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  08:05, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

ANSWERED -> Like transitivity
What is the term that describes where Eih likes Bee, and Bee likes Tsi, insinuating that Eih likes Tsi? I knew the word a year ago, and I've forgotten it now. I think it sounds like "allegory" or "corollary" maybe? Hyenaste (tell) 19:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you mean transitivity? 'Liking' is not necessarily a transitive relation though. For instance, if 'Eih' likes 'Bee' and is married to 'Bee', while 'Bee' likes his/her lover 'Tsi', you cannot deduce that 'Eih' likes 'Tsi'. Quite the opposite usually.---Sluzzelin 21:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Eh, miscommunicaton. When I wrote "like transitivity", I meant "(searching for a word that is) [similar to] transitivity". And yes, it usually is incorrect. Hmm, now that you mention it, it might be a logical fallacy. Hyenaste (tell) 21:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yea, if people are like whales (in that they are both mammals), and whales are like coral (in that they both eat plankton), can we conclude that people are like coral ? StuRat 01:41, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

'''Success! It was syllogism.''' Hyenaste (tell) 22:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)